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he was

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genuinely concerned um

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by what he saw you know he with what he

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saw

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uh he was he was worried he sounded

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confused then as he described

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what the aircraft was doing you know i

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became a little bit concerned too

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i had extreme doubt as to his safety

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flying a single-engine airplane over

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water lost communication in such

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strange circumstances uh i put an alert

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phase on the aeroplane

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and once that had elapsed we then went

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to the distress

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phase stage and that was the

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commencement of the search

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there's been no recovery of any

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wreckage of course he

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he has gone so we're left with

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an open case which sounds

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very much like he did encounter

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something

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very mysterious and there's no other

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conclusion that

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i can come to other than that

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the voice you just heard was that of

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steve roby

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the flight tower service operator out of

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melbourne flight air service

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on october 21st 1978 frederick valentich

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was piloting his

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cessna airplane over bass strait heading

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south eastwardly

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for king island this is when he radioed

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steve

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in a controlled panic stating that

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something anomalous

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was not only following his aircraft but

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was now flying directly

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above it valentich described the object

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as rather large

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cigar-shaped metallic with a green light

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pulsating from it

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it passed over his plane and then

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vanished out of sight

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moments later it returned and was once

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again

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dangerously close to valentij's aircraft

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the last words of his transmission were

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as follows

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quote it is hovering and it's not

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an aircraft this is when the

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transmission

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went dead and frederick valentich and

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his plane

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were never seen again this strange case

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of a possible ufo and disappearance of a

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pilot has gone down

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in the annals of ufology both

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controversial

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and deeply mysterious personally

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it has fascinated me for decades and

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when i learned that today's guest

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actually spoke with the girlfriend of

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lintage

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i knew i had to hear from him but we'll

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have more on today's guest

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in just a moment so i do have a news

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story for you guys this week

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and i want to get your thoughts on this

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because i honestly

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don't know what to make of this but i've

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been following it for a couple weeks now

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this case comes out of rio bronco in

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brazil

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on march 27th when news outlets started

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to report that a young man

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bruno borges had been reported missing

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by his parents

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uh to preface this he'd apparently

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always had a fascination

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with both the occult and aliens so

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apparently

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borges's parents came home from vacation

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and when they tried to enter the young

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man's bedroom

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it was locked they were finally able to

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pry it open

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and what they saw was absolutely

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jaw-dropping

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now they did record what they walked

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into and it can be viewed online now so

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i'll post a link to

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the video of this it's deeply

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fascinating to say the least

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so apparently borges had covered the

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walls of his bedroom with

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coded text and extremely detailed

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diagrams

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also set out on a table were these

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series of

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self-published books written in code and

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numbered the strangest thing however was

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in the center of the bedroom

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a massive statue had been erected of

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giodano bruno a 16th century philosopher

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and theorist who was eventually

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burned at the stake for his

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proclamations of outer space and

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exoplanets

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which could possibly harbor alien life

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an artist rendering

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also was found hanging on a wall of the

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bedroom which was assumed to be that of

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borges dressed as the philosopher with

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an alien creature putting his hand

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on vargas's shoulder while this is all

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deeply mysterious

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it left so many questions the first

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being

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why his siblings hadn't noticed he was

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doing all of his work

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in the bedroom and not letting them in

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so his sister

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explained that he'd locked himself in

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the room for 24

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straight days saying that he was working

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on a quote

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project and that he was not to be

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disturbed so while they knocked on the

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door to check on him sporadically he

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always said he was fine and to leave him

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alone

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when his parents arrived home from

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vacation and learned of all this

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they broke into the room and made this

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discovery

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as of right now as i'm recording this

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april 21st borgis

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is still reported missing many believe

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that once the book's heed lied out on

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the table

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once they're decoded it will lead to his

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reappearance

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but local authorities are working with

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the parents and with interpol

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to try to find him but they are also

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working with decoders to try to unravel

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the mysterious and cryptic messages

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he left behind social networks have been

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going crazy

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on this case everything from debating

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its authenticity

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to trying to decode the strange symbols

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and diagrams he left on the walls of the

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bedroom

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people are also theorizing as to why

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borges did this

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in the first place some suggesting he

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may believe he is

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channeling the work of giordano bruno

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and continuing

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his work others think that he

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may have been taken by an alien race to

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finish his work while the people back

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here on earth decipher his books

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it's all very speculative and extremely

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strange

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so one of my listeners current recently

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brought to my attention

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a couple developments in this case

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apparently

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a childhood friend of borges one thales

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vasconcelos

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told brazilian news outlets that he

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actually helped borges encrypt the text

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in the books and that he was tasked with

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transcribing the books from portuguese

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into this secret code the text

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supposedly ponders the meaning of life

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and how borgis had been given a quote

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mission

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to write the books but the friend

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remains mystified to just exactly what

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this mission is or who is giving it to

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borges

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investigators have managed to track down

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the artist who created the statue

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in the room his name is jorge rifasplat

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and his beliefs are that borges is in

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fact a reincarnation

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of giordano bruno so this case just

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seems to become

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crazier and crazier as small bits of the

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puzzle are being put into place

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but the real question is if any of this

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is genuine

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00:06:59,270 --> 00:06:57,440
my hesitancy with this from the start is

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that not many mainstream news outlets

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are covering this case

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00:07:04,230 --> 00:07:02,080
not that that proves it to be

203
00:07:05,029 --> 00:07:04,240
disingenuous because of this but with

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the young men

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missing and this terribly strange thing

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going on let's be honest entertaining

207
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mysteries

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you'd think the news outlets would be

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gobbling this up

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so many believe that the occult like

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aspects of this all is somehow connected

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to a shadowy society

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the illuminati and that they're

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attempting to keep it all under wraps

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until borges makes his return

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to the world others believe it's all

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some sort of

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performance piece seeing how far the

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story can spread

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now if that is the case then i fell for

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it

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but glided sinker because this story to

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me it just gets creepier and creepier

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and i want to keep following it so i

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guess we'll just have to wait and see

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if bruno borges ever returns or what the

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exact messages

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00:07:54,710 --> 00:07:52,319
in the series of books he's written

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truly mean but i'm interested in hearing

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your thoughts

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on this entire situation is it a genuine

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head scratcher is this young man some

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sort of astroprojecting reincarnated

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philosopher meeting with aliens

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or is this all complete [\h__\h] send

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your thoughts

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to spreck somewhere in the skies dot com

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or

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00:08:14,869 --> 00:08:13,360
join our active facebook page somewhere

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in the skies podcast

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you can also tweet the show the handle

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is at somewhere skies

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and if you're listening on youtube let

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us know what you think

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in the comments below setting this story

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on the skeptical debate

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shelf for now let's get to today's guest

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micah hanks is an author researcher

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podcaster

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lecturer and radio personality whose

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work addresses a variety

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of areas including history politics

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scientific theories and unexplained

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phenomena he is the author of several

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books

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including the ghost rockets magic

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mysticism and the molecule and the ufo

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singularity today i speak with micah

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about some of the most intriguing ufo

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cases to date

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including the one you heard about at the

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top of the intro

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we also speak about the work of perhaps

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one of the lesser known

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but most influential individuals to

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apply

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science to the study of ufos

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we even touch on micah's approach

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completely reshaping

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and reinterpreting the classification

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system

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of ufo reports so without further ado

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let's get to the interview with micah

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hanks

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let's do this jenkins

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oh man what a great way to start it guys

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i'm here with

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micah hanks my good buddy uh researcher

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and micah a lot of people might not know

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this but you

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you actually wrote the forward to my

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book somewhere in the sky so i thought

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it was very appropriate

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to have you on as one of my first guests

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on this endeavor

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that i'm embarking on so brother thank

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you so much for coming on today

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oh well it's my pleasure of course and

289
00:10:01,269 --> 00:09:59,600
uh you know it was

290
00:10:03,350 --> 00:10:01,279
also a pleasure to be able to write that

291
00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:03,360
uh that forward you know for your first

292
00:10:05,269 --> 00:10:04,000
book i've

293
00:10:07,509 --> 00:10:05,279
done a lot of forwards for different

294
00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:07,519
people but uh you know you've always

295
00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:08,640
been a special guy

296
00:10:11,990 --> 00:10:10,320
since the very first time you uh reached

297
00:10:13,509 --> 00:10:12,000
out and uh

298
00:10:15,190 --> 00:10:13,519
you know we actually had that

299
00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:15,200
opportunity although i regret

300
00:10:18,710 --> 00:10:17,040
terribly missing your lecture this year

301
00:10:20,949 --> 00:10:18,720
at the ufo congress i wasn't able to get

302
00:10:22,389 --> 00:10:20,959
out there as i had planned to

303
00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:22,399
initially i was trying to get the entire

304
00:10:25,590 --> 00:10:23,839
grayling team out there and it just

305
00:10:27,269 --> 00:10:25,600
didn't come together but

306
00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:27,279
uh that said you and i had gotten to

307
00:10:32,630 --> 00:10:29,360
hang out at a previous congress

308
00:10:34,630 --> 00:10:32,640
uh years back and then subsequently

309
00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:34,640
i during a travel to new york was able

310
00:10:36,870 --> 00:10:36,240
to meet up with you and peter robbins

311
00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:36,880
you know and i

312
00:10:40,069 --> 00:10:38,959
i talk about in that forward of course

313
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:40,079
for those who haven't read it and you

314
00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:40,640
should

315
00:10:45,269 --> 00:10:42,160
but don't just read the forward read the

316
00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:45,279
entire book because ryan wrote the rest

317
00:10:48,310 --> 00:10:47,200
yeah i talked about you know traipsing

318
00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:48,320
around new york and

319
00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:50,320
having hot chocolate with you and uh

320
00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:52,240
peter robbins although

321
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:53,600
i hope you don't mind me bringing this

322
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:55,279
up but there is a uh

323
00:10:59,030 --> 00:10:56,959
a bone i have to pick with myself here

324
00:11:01,990 --> 00:10:59,040
because you know i mentioned that and i

325
00:11:03,190 --> 00:11:02,000
referred to pete seeing uh jfk at one

326
00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:03,200
point

327
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:05,360
uh in his early life and i think you

328
00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:07,279
know it may have been misconstrued

329
00:11:11,509 --> 00:11:10,160
as though peter had met uh john f

330
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:11,519
kennedy when in fact i mean he

331
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:14,320
described very you know vividly for you

332
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:15,760
and i that day

333
00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:18,320
standing there and meeting eye to eye

334
00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:19,760
with him but he didn't meet

335
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:21,920
jfk so i just wanted to kind of clarify

336
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:23,600
that because you know i've had a few

337
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:25,040
people ask about that peter robbins met

338
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:26,079
jfk

339
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:29,440
well he he is someone who has had a very

340
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:30,240
sincere

341
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:32,720
appreciation for jfk and has collected a

342
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:34,240
lot of memorabilia about him and

343
00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:36,560
and so that was a very you know poignant

344
00:11:40,069 --> 00:11:38,000
experience for him because that occurred

345
00:11:41,829 --> 00:11:40,079
of course you know a short time before

346
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:41,839
uh the assassination probably within a

347
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:43,120
matter of months uh

348
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:44,399
i think he was campaigning at the time

349
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,240
but yeah peter described for you and i

350
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:48,480
standing there as a youth and and he

351
00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:50,720
said that jfk would work a crowd

352
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:52,880
with his eyes and it was something that

353
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:54,720
as a politician who was extremely good

354
00:11:59,269 --> 00:11:57,120
at him that he locked eyes with jfk so

355
00:12:00,870 --> 00:11:59,279
it wasn't maybe exactly a meeting but i

356
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:00,880
think that my wording may have

357
00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:03,120
misconstrued it as that so just for

358
00:12:06,629 --> 00:12:04,160
clarification

359
00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:06,639
and of course uh with due reference to

360
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:09,040
our good pal peter great guy

361
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,680
oh thanks man well you know what i mean

362
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:13,920
um

363
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:16,639
myself included like that's that's

364
00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:17,440
things that can be

365
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:20,160
often overlooked pretty easily and uh

366
00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:21,360
you know maybe we

367
00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:23,760
misheard one another or uh we were

368
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:26,160
taking a sip of cocoa at that time but

369
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:28,639
it's funny you know uh peter even told

370
00:12:32,069 --> 00:12:29,680
me one time

371
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:32,079
a quote by samuel clemens the difference

372
00:12:34,870 --> 00:12:34,000
between the right word and the almost

373
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:34,880
right word

374
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:36,720
is the difference between the lightning

375
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:38,160
and the lightning bug

376
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:40,560
so you gotta love that that's poetry

377
00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:41,440
right there

378
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:43,760
well everything everything peter robbins

379
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:45,440
says his poetry he is one of the most

380
00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:46,959
thorough individuals

381
00:12:50,829 --> 00:12:48,880
that i've ever met or known and we were

382
00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:50,839
in minneapolis together last

383
00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:53,200
spring and as we were standing out there

384
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:55,440
and although it was spring it was frigid

385
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:57,040
cold i remember it was so cold we were

386
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:58,320
standing out there and he was having a

387
00:13:02,470 --> 00:12:59,279
cigarette and i

388
00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:02,480
if if i seemed antsy it must have been

389
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:04,000
having nothing to do with what he was

390
00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:06,320
talking about but just the the chilly

391
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:07,839
wind and pete of course you know

392
00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:09,839
being a new yorker yourself you're the

393
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:11,680
same you're probably more used to that

394
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:13,360
cold wind and he was standing there just

395
00:13:16,949 --> 00:13:15,200
completely unmoved unaffected and

396
00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:16,959
telling this elaborate story and here i

397
00:13:19,990 --> 00:13:18,639
am i don't handle heat well but i live

398
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:20,000
in the south where it's so hot i'm

399
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:22,399
freezing i mean i was just frozen yeah

400
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:23,279
so i

401
00:13:26,069 --> 00:13:24,720
you know i've got so many good pete

402
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:26,079
stories and i know you do too so he's

403
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:27,440
just a wonderful guy not you know and

404
00:13:29,829 --> 00:13:28,720
that's why i wanted to bring that up

405
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:29,839
just because

406
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:33,120
again i think uh me personally uh and i

407
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:33,519
know

408
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:36,240
it's the same for you i kind of looked

409
00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:36,959
to him

410
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:39,680
as one of the most well-rounded and

411
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:40,320
knowledgeable

412
00:13:44,389 --> 00:13:43,360
scholars on the ufo phenomena having

413
00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:44,399
spent a lot of time

414
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:46,000
going through newspaper archives and

415
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,519
having again

416
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:49,040
really tried to understand the meaning

417
00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:50,639
of words

418
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:54,399
and um and the way that words

419
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:57,279
convey or what words convey about the

420
00:14:00,470 --> 00:13:58,560
ufo subject

421
00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:00,480
you know he he has talked about tracing

422
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:01,920
the giggle factor you've heard him talk

423
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:02,880
about that right

424
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:04,959
absolutely i mean i've even accompanied

425
00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:06,639
him a few times at the new york public

426
00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:07,440
library

427
00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:09,040
where we've gone through the uh the

428
00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:10,560
microfiche and

429
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:13,040
the newspaper articles and peter is the

430
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:14,000
kind of guy

431
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:17,199
uh where a library is the

432
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:19,440
the sanctuary rather than the internet

433
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:21,040
and i think there's something

434
00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:22,480
to be said for that there are things

435
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:24,880
we're gonna find you know in the annals

436
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:26,399
of the bookshelves that we

437
00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:29,519
we won't find in the piles and piles of

438
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:30,079
garbage

439
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:33,600
on the internet so uh like yourself i do

440
00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:34,639
find peter as a

441
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:37,839
uh my mentor um in specific

442
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:40,480
and just a wealth of information

443
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:42,000
absolutely

444
00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:43,760
yeah yeah and again just one of the most

445
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:45,279
thorough guys i read a

446
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:48,000
review of one of his lectures by a uh

447
00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:49,360
skeptic and it was

448
00:14:52,389 --> 00:14:51,519
a very mean review because the guy was

449
00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:52,399
talking about how

450
00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:55,519
uh boring the ufo subject was uh

451
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:57,760
in in observing peter talk about it i'm

452
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:59,600
thinking you're missing the point though

453
00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:00,160
because

454
00:15:03,269 --> 00:15:01,920
i love it when people who are of a

455
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,279
skeptical ilk

456
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:05,760
uh complain when somebody is thorough if

457
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:06,880
they're going to look at facts in

458
00:15:09,430 --> 00:15:08,000
history about something or if a

459
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:09,440
scientist for instance comes out like

460
00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:11,760
brian sykes and says you know i think

461
00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:14,240
we should actually apply some science to

462
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:16,399
the study of something like bigfoot

463
00:15:20,069 --> 00:15:18,880
there's a recent dna study that's been

464
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:20,079
announced i don't think it's been

465
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,079
conducted but they plan to

466
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:24,160
sample water from different parts of the

467
00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:26,000
famous loch ness in scotland

468
00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:28,480
to see if there is any biological

469
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:30,079
residue that we might be able to

470
00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:30,880
attribute to an

471
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:32,720
unknown species and again it's

472
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:34,240
interesting there are people of a

473
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:36,240
skeptical ilk i would call them more

474
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:38,880
doubters or debunkers or perhaps as

475
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:41,920
sharon hill has called them denialists

476
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:43,519
these kinds of individuals they don't

477
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:45,279
want to see science

478
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:48,399
uh being conducted or thorough research

479
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:50,079
with certain subjects because their mind

480
00:15:54,069 --> 00:15:51,440
has already been made up and

481
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:54,079
so the very thing that a serious

482
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:55,040
hardened

483
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:57,199
denialist would criticize someone like

484
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:59,440
peter for is what makes him such a good

485
00:16:02,310 --> 00:16:01,120
researcher it's what makes him so strong

486
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:02,320
it's what makes him

487
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:03,759
so revered in the community and what

488
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:05,759
makes him such a

489
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,000
powerful individual because again his

490
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:10,480
mind is like a steel trap and his

491
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:13,680
attention for details i don't i'll never

492
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:15,199
understand how anyone could look at that

493
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,720
and say that's not a good thing it's the

494
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:18,480
best thing and he's the best at it

495
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:22,079
oh my god dude i mean i i can't remember

496
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:23,839
what i had for breakfast but this guy is

497
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:26,720
recalling what people were wearing

498
00:16:30,310 --> 00:16:29,519
you know when he was 12 13 14 years old

499
00:16:32,870 --> 00:16:30,320
he met

500
00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:32,880
you know a famous actress on broadway or

501
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:34,079
he met this

502
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:37,279
this academic it's it's incredible and

503
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:39,199
did he meet those academics or did he

504
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,680
see them at a distance

505
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:43,759
we're gonna have to get his word on that

506
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:45,759
yeah oh yeah well i can't wait to come

507
00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:47,279
back up and visit and uh

508
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:49,279
see you and pete we're long overdue for

509
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,639
some more hot chocolate or heck we could

510
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:52,000
even do coffee or tea this time let's

511
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:53,759
get crazy let's let's just get a little

512
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:55,759
nuts for sure

513
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:59,040
all right so i mean i i first came

514
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,800
across your work through your book the

515
00:17:03,910 --> 00:17:02,639
ufo singularity um which we can

516
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:03,920
definitely dive into a little bit if

517
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:05,039
you'd like um

518
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,480
but what really struck me was

519
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:11,280
there was a a case that you covered in

520
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:12,640
chapter four of the book

521
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:15,039
about a gentleman named mike reese and

522
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:16,000
uh this

523
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:18,640
really caught my attention and i i'd

524
00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:19,039
love

525
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:21,360
if you wouldn't mind if we could kind of

526
00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:22,480
bring our listeners

527
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,520
uh a little taste of what that case was

528
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:27,760
walk us through it and what you made of

529
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:29,039
this

530
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:30,960
well yeah and in fact i'm still in touch

531
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:32,080
with mike and i regret

532
00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:34,880
that on st patrick's day which last

533
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:36,400
saint patty's day you'll recall of

534
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:38,240
course on your other fine podcast i was

535
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:39,440
celebrating with you

536
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:42,640
and your co-hosts uh this year i was

537
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:44,640
busy busy busy busy and i wasn't able to

538
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:46,080
get out of the house at all

539
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:47,600
and it so happened that i mean everybody

540
00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:48,880
was in asheville that day and they were

541
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:49,760
all saying hey

542
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:51,440
you got time to catch up have a drink or

543
00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:53,520
something so i didn't get to meet with

544
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:55,679
mike but he happened to be in town and i

545
00:17:57,029 --> 00:17:56,720
need to get back with him and let him

546
00:18:00,390 --> 00:17:57,039
know

547
00:18:02,310 --> 00:18:00,400
we're long overdue um because

548
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:02,320
he and i are still in touch and how we

549
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:03,679
met was like yourself

550
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,360
he actually found me through the podcast

551
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:07,679
not the book okay um

552
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:10,480
and he uh ended up in that book though

553
00:18:13,909 --> 00:18:12,320
the very book that you mentioned

554
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:13,919
mike uh he reached out and he said i

555
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:16,080
love your podcast uh the grayling report

556
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:16,720
and

557
00:18:20,789 --> 00:18:19,679
he said i haven't talked about this in

558
00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:20,799
years but i thought you might be the

559
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:22,400
right kind of guy to tell

560
00:18:25,909 --> 00:18:24,000
about a ufo experience if you'd like to

561
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,919
hear about it and i said yeah sure

562
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:28,000
and he said he had all but forgotten

563
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:29,520
about this and never talked about it

564
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:32,640
anymore because this experience was just

565
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:34,880
so surreal but he was not the only

566
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:36,160
witness uh and

567
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:37,280
and there were a lot of interesting

568
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:39,200
elements of corroboration so getting

569
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:40,640
down to the nuts and bolts so to speak

570
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:42,080
i'll just preface this by saying that

571
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:44,000
1973 is when this occurred

572
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:45,840
and right there toward the end of 1973

573
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:47,039
there were a lot of

574
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:50,559
significant ufo reports that have kind

575
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,440
of

576
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:53,520
been gone over and rehashed over the

577
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:54,799
years and so

578
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:58,240
i wanted to discuss this because uh in

579
00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,760
in my book the ufo singularity i wanted

580
00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:00,960
to talk about what mike reese

581
00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:02,080
experienced

582
00:19:06,789 --> 00:19:04,880
because it not only coincided roughly

583
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:06,799
with that period 1973 i mean the

584
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:08,720
pascagoula abduction of charles hickson

585
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:10,160
and calvin parker that was a big one but

586
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:11,280
there were others too

587
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:13,600
right around that time uh it was it was

588
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:14,320
not only

589
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:16,400
timely but it was a case that was i

590
00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:18,480
think as interesting as any of those and

591
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:19,039
yet

592
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,799
uh had never been discussed because as

593
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:22,080
we often see and you

594
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:23,600
talk about this kind of thing a lot in

595
00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:25,919
your book ryan um

596
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:27,039
a lot of people when they've seen these

597
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:28,880
kind of things they they second guess

598
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:30,320
themselves they are worried what people

599
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:31,679
will think about what they have to say

600
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:33,039
and they don't come forward and talk

601
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:33,840
about it

602
00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:36,320
right so so mike hadn't talked about

603
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,559
this and uh asked could i come to you

604
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:40,640
and discuss what i saw back in 73 would

605
00:19:42,789 --> 00:19:41,760
you be interested i said sure and i

606
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:42,799
thought he's going to talk about a light

607
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:44,400
in the sky and boy

608
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:45,919
it was anything but just a light in the

609
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:48,240
sky although the case began that way

610
00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:50,799
it was probably in late november 1973 he

611
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:52,320
couldn't remember the exact night but we

612
00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:53,120
tried to

613
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:54,880
to work all that out and i traveled with

614
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:56,320
him to the location where he saw this

615
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:58,240
which was locust grove

616
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:01,200
just outside of uh atlanta georgia but

617
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:02,720
he actually i think lived in an area

618
00:20:05,909 --> 00:20:03,840
called forest park

619
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:05,919
and was in route from atlanta back to

620
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:07,440
forest park and passing through this

621
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:08,880
area locust grove

622
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:10,159
and there's there's what's known as the

623
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:12,400
bill gardner highway that that you can

624
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:13,600
get onto and then you get back on the

625
00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:14,880
interstate and everything

626
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,400
and he had been driving north on highway

627
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:18,320
2342

628
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:20,559
and again it was probably after midnight

629
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:22,000
and he sees again a

630
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:24,720
bright white light off in the distance

631
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:25,440
which he said

632
00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:26,400
he would have thought it was a

633
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:28,240
helicopter but he he couldn't place it

634
00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:29,520
he said there was just something about

635
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:30,960
it that wasn't quite right something

636
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,440
seemed

637
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:33,520
off about the movement of the object

638
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:34,720
it's sort of

639
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:36,880
like if you're out at night and you if

640
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:39,120
you can spot celestial bodies uh like

641
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:40,480
you know for instance first we'll say

642
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:42,000
a star further out you're going to

643
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:43,600
notice what's called scintillation

644
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:45,600
a twinkling and this is what causes the

645
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:47,840
twinkling effect of the stars whereas

646
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:48,640
our own uh

647
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,480
solar bodies here within our solar

648
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:52,400
system the the actual planetary bodies

649
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,960
uh

650
00:20:56,789 --> 00:20:54,480
most prevalent usually are going to be

651
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:56,799
venus or jupiter or saturn they're not

652
00:20:58,710 --> 00:20:58,000
going to have that kind of scintillation

653
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:58,720
they're closer

654
00:21:01,909 --> 00:20:59,679
they're actual planets they're

655
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:01,919
reflecting sunlight and they're you know

656
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,240
in terms of proximity much closer so

657
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:06,159
he said that the the appearance of the

658
00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:07,919
light you might like into scintillation

659
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:08,960
or something but there was also this

660
00:21:12,549 --> 00:21:10,640
kind of an awkward almost aberrant kind

661
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:12,559
of movement

662
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:14,080
and as he's watching this thing move

663
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:15,760
through the air he misses his turn

664
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:17,120
intentionally and starts heading in the

665
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:18,320
direction of the line

666
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:21,280
and so his wife and his sister and their

667
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:22,960
children i think he said his first born

668
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:23,760
and also his

669
00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:26,480
uh sister's two little children very

670
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:27,200
small

671
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:28,080
and i don't think they would have

672
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:30,880
remembered this they were in the vehicle

673
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:33,200
and so altogether there were three adult

674
00:21:36,070 --> 00:21:34,640
observers who were awakened who were

675
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:36,080
aware at this time

676
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:39,200
as his wife had been in the front

677
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,880
passenger seat with him his sister in

678
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:42,720
the back seat and they were all saying

679
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:44,159
mike what are you doing you just missed

680
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:45,520
your training says well i just need to

681
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:46,960
i want to see what this was something

682
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:49,039
about that light wasn't quite right

683
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:51,120
as he's getting closer and again keep in

684
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:52,080
mind i met him

685
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:53,520
here in north carolina and we drove all

686
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,200
the way down to atlanta

687
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:57,520
and we went and we retraced these steps

688
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:58,240
so as i

689
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,200
am driving up the highway with him he

690
00:22:04,549 --> 00:22:03,280
points to the same little row of trees

691
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:04,559
and sure enough the same power

692
00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:06,240
substation on the left side of the road

693
00:22:09,909 --> 00:22:07,280
headed north

694
00:22:11,669 --> 00:22:09,919
is still there and he said as we were

695
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:11,679
coming you got to keep in mind it's late

696
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:12,000
at night

697
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,520
so the bright light of whatever this

698
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:15,120
object was it had stopped moving it was

699
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:16,000
now hovering

700
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:17,600
roughly over the area where this power

701
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:20,480
substation directly ahead of us was

702
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:22,240
and we're able to see the light beaming

703
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:23,760
through the trees but we can't make out

704
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:24,720
anything yet

705
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:26,880
and he said i was getting so excited the

706
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:28,960
anticipation building as i'm coming up

707
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:31,120
on this object you couldn't imagine

708
00:22:34,789 --> 00:22:32,880
and then as he gets close enough to this

709
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,799
thing lo and behold

710
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,559
he pulls up he swerves off the side of

711
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:38,640
the road we parked exactly where he

712
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:40,720
presumes again decades ago that he had

713
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,320
actually pulled up off the road

714
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:44,320
and he leaps out of the car because

715
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:45,840
directly over this

716
00:22:50,549 --> 00:22:48,880
power substation he is able to see

717
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:50,559
a and this is interesting okay a lot of

718
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:52,080
ufo cases involve

719
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:54,080
amorphous objects a lot of them involve

720
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:55,120
triangles

721
00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:56,640
from time to time you know you also get

722
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:58,559
elliptical kind of objects there aren't

723
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:00,080
very many that really are

724
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:04,080
good what i would call saucers or discs

725
00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:05,360
and the reason i point that out is

726
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:07,360
because again although jay allen heineck

727
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:07,760
first

728
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:09,760
instituted that terminology back in the

729
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,799
19

730
00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:12,320
maybe he may have used it as early as

731
00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:14,400
the 1950s but really the 1960s is when

732
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:14,960
it began

733
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:17,840
you know kind of became canon so to

734
00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:19,360
speak to ufology

735
00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:21,440
um the daylight disc designation

736
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:23,200
referred to a range of different objects

737
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:24,240
of different appearance

738
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:27,280
not just discs and the whole thing of

739
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:30,480
flying saucer was in reference to

740
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:32,320
the mode of transportation or the

741
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:33,520
movement

742
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:35,120
okay the locomotion of the objects

743
00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:36,880
observed by kenneth arnold not the

744
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:37,600
actual

745
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:40,559
description of their shape right that's

746
00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:41,279
a whole different

747
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:43,039
thing we could get into later but it's

748
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:44,400
important to point that out here because

749
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:46,400
what mike reese saw

750
00:23:50,710 --> 00:23:49,600
was a distinctly disc shaped object and

751
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:50,720
it was hovering

752
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:52,080
he said that there were lights all

753
00:23:54,149 --> 00:23:53,840
around the perimeter that were going in

754
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:54,159
a

755
00:23:57,909 --> 00:23:56,000
sequence of red green blue red green

756
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:57,919
blue like that and that he was able to

757
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:59,679
observe this thing hovering

758
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:01,679
for several minutes now he said i i

759
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:03,440
swerve over you know park the car and i

760
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:04,640
jump out and i see this thing and he

761
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:06,000
said i was

762
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,919
so excited and he and i asked him i said

763
00:24:10,789 --> 00:24:09,360
what did you do did you just stand there

764
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:10,799
and look he said i jumped up and down i

765
00:24:12,530 --> 00:24:12,080
was waving my arms trying to get its

766
00:24:14,549 --> 00:24:12,540
attention

767
00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:14,559
[Laughter]

768
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:16,400
and he said i just wanted to know who

769
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,480
was on board that thing

770
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:20,000
and what's really interesting about

771
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:21,679
mike's interpretation i try to be very

772
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:23,039
careful about leading the witness and i

773
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:24,240
said who did you think was on board he

774
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:25,440
said i don't know scientists or

775
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:26,720
something like that

776
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:27,840
i said where do you think they were from

777
00:24:30,149 --> 00:24:29,200
and he says i don't know they could have

778
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:30,159
been from out there but he said

779
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:31,600
something about this object being able

780
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:32,640
to see it

781
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:34,000
and not just hear about this kind of

782
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:35,440
thing he said his father was always

783
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:37,200
interested in the unusual

784
00:24:40,549 --> 00:24:38,480
and that he had had things like fake

785
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:40,559
magazine laying around when he was a kid

786
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:44,880
but he said this object

787
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:47,679
defied all expectations it didn't seem

788
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:49,520
otherworldly but then again it was

789
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:50,159
unlike

790
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:53,440
any aircraft or any kind of device

791
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:55,360
machinery anything that he had ever seen

792
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:57,039
or could conceive of

793
00:25:00,070 --> 00:24:58,880
existing on earth and so he said

794
00:25:01,909 --> 00:25:00,080
something told me this was

795
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:01,919
perhaps an earthly technology i did

796
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,279
nothing about this said this is so far

797
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:04,799
out it's got to be aliens

798
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:06,480
but then again i mean that was me

799
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:08,080
jumping up and down looking at this

800
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:08,640
thing

801
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:10,559
not reading about it in a magazine now

802
00:25:13,269 --> 00:25:11,919
his wife and his

803
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:13,279
sister were terrified they were

804
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:14,640
screaming at him get back in the car

805
00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:16,400
they were so frightened

806
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:18,960
and when i met with him back in probably

807
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:21,120
2011 for dinner

808
00:25:25,269 --> 00:25:23,440
his uh wife at the time they had

809
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:25,279
divorced unfortunately but

810
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:26,960
she wasn't present but his sister did

811
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:28,480
come out that night and

812
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:30,799
she was able to confirm that the details

813
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:31,520
that mike

814
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:33,440
had given me were correct and he

815
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:35,200
provided not only a full written report

816
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:37,520
but then we also met and discussed it

817
00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:38,960
his stories never changed there'd never

818
00:25:43,029 --> 00:25:40,880
been weird crazy you know

819
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:43,039
additions or anything like that he did

820
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:44,320
say

821
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,440
that at the time he worked for the

822
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:47,279
georgia division of transportation and

823
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:50,559
that the next day at work he suddenly

824
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:52,799
had a headache and got sick physically

825
00:25:55,669 --> 00:25:54,320
sick and had had to be taken to the

826
00:25:58,710 --> 00:25:55,679
infirmary

827
00:26:00,390 --> 00:25:58,720
and uh yeah they told him that he had

828
00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:00,400
suffered from an ocular headache and

829
00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:01,360
that was all

830
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,960
but again i wondered i mean what might

831
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:04,320
have caused this headache because we do

832
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:05,360
as we're going to look at a little later

833
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:06,720
with another ufo case i think we're

834
00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:08,480
going to be discussing

835
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:10,480
there are people who after they have

836
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,080
observed a ufo

837
00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:14,799
uh at close distance they will suffer

838
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:16,400
physical effects

839
00:26:19,909 --> 00:26:18,240
uh that are typically not very good

840
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:19,919
right so um

841
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:21,840
the other thing that was so sad was that

842
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:23,120
mike had a good friend that he worked

843
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:25,039
with there at the d.o.t and he

844
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:26,799
started to describe this the next day

845
00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:28,000
and he said that they talked about space

846
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:29,360
and astronomy and things like that all

847
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:30,080
the time

848
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,760
as he began to describe the object that

849
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:33,360
he saw he says his friend

850
00:26:36,830 --> 00:26:36,080
his eyes widened and he he said it was

851
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:36,840
the most

852
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:39,840
palpable uh sense of

853
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:41,840
uh how what would you call it i guess i

854
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:42,960
mean it was just this guy

855
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:44,720
thought that mike was nuts and literally

856
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:46,000
almost just didn't want to

857
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:47,360
have anything to do with him anymore

858
00:26:50,789 --> 00:26:49,360
after this experience

859
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,799
and he said it was those kinds of

860
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,240
experiences when i would try to talk to

861
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,840
somebody about this

862
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:55,679
and they would absolutely shun me i just

863
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:57,120
shut up and i just quit talking about it

864
00:26:59,590 --> 00:26:58,720
but he said i did right after it

865
00:27:02,230 --> 00:26:59,600
happened

866
00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:02,240
i did contact the the local news station

867
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,279
there in atlanta and they said they'd

868
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:04,960
gotten all kinds of reports

869
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:06,320
of you know people who had been driving

870
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:07,679
that night over on the adjacent

871
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,159
interstate because he watched the object

872
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:12,000
and it hovered for several minutes and

873
00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:13,679
then it began to drift off

874
00:27:15,909 --> 00:27:14,720
probably what would have been to the

875
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:15,919
west over in the direction of the

876
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:17,679
interstate and he said i knew as i was

877
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:18,640
watching this thing move in that

878
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,840
direction people out there driving on

879
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:21,200
the highway had to have seen it

880
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:22,399
and sure enough they'd gotten a couple

881
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:24,559
of reports there at the uh at the news

882
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:25,760
station that he said but but again

883
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:27,039
nobody seemed to really report on this

884
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:28,000
because it just seemed

885
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:30,880
oh you know crazy yeah so you know that

886
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:31,360
was his

887
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:33,600
uh report and one of the things that i

888
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:35,360
found extremely interesting about it was

889
00:27:38,789 --> 00:27:38,399
uh the the sequence of the colors that

890
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,799
were

891
00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:40,240
moving around the periphery of the

892
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:41,679
object because again that red green and

893
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:43,600
blue you got to keep in mind that

894
00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:45,120
red green and blue are the primary

895
00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:46,880
colors as far as light goes whereas with

896
00:27:50,389 --> 00:27:48,320
pigments it's yellow green and

897
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:50,399
i'm sorry yellow red and blue when you

898
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:52,640
combine those those three primary

899
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:54,159
this is referring to what's called

900
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:55,760
additive light theory essentially you

901
00:28:00,389 --> 00:27:57,360
combine those three colors of the

902
00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:00,399
primary spectra and you get white light

903
00:28:03,909 --> 00:28:02,480
and he described initially having seen

904
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:03,919
the thing at a distance as

905
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:06,320
as resembling a white light that he said

906
00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:07,520
something about it was weird

907
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:11,200
again that sort of scintillation but not

908
00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:12,640
and what that said to me was i mean this

909
00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:14,399
is an obvious clue

910
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:17,360
about the uh the mechanism and the

911
00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:19,039
locomotion of this object what was

912
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:20,320
propelling through the sky

913
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:21,520
i asked him i said was there any

914
00:28:25,269 --> 00:28:23,840
evidence of this object turning

915
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:25,279
counterclockwise or otherwise and he

916
00:28:29,669 --> 00:28:26,080
said

917
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:29,679
ob the lights

918
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:31,440
moving in sequence might have given that

919
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:32,720
appearance but he said it was too

920
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:34,240
difficult to discern because this

921
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:35,760
the actual exterior of the craft looked

922
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:37,600
like a kind of brushed uh

923
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:40,240
silvery gray very dark uh but metallic

924
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,360
and of course in those

925
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:43,279
conditions very little could be

926
00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:44,559
discerned but the other interesting

927
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,679
thing about it again is

928
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:48,000
this object hovering over a power

929
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:49,600
substation

930
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:51,360
in other ufological literature we hear

931
00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:53,520
about this kind of thing often ryan

932
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:55,679
ufos that hover over power substations

933
00:28:59,430 --> 00:28:56,799
or over

934
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,440
nuclear facilities absolutely yeah i

935
00:29:02,789 --> 00:29:01,279
mean the maelstrom air force base

936
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:02,799
incident comes to mind first and

937
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:05,360
foremost but yeah please elaborate

938
00:29:08,389 --> 00:29:07,039
well and just to be briefly i'll give

939
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:08,399
you another recent example john

940
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:10,480
greenwald of the black vault uh has

941
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:12,960
for years done a fabulous job obtaining

942
00:29:16,789 --> 00:29:15,039
government documentation about ufos

943
00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:16,799
and again i don't understand the

944
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:18,480
mentality of people who would turn their

945
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:20,320
nose up at this alleged phenomenon when

946
00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:21,919
you can go and you can read

947
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:23,440
these documents the most recent had been

948
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:24,960
i think the nuclear

949
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:27,600
regulatory commission he had uh sent an

950
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:29,520
foia request to them and they finally

951
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:30,960
sent back a series of documents that

952
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:31,760
referred to a

953
00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:34,480
incident that occurred around 1986 where

954
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:36,080
a triangular shaped

955
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:39,360
aircraft had been traveling down the

956
00:29:43,510 --> 00:29:41,520
missouri river about 150 feet i believe

957
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:43,520
if memory serves above the water and it

958
00:29:46,549 --> 00:29:45,120
hovered outside the intake of this

959
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,559
nuclear facility

960
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:48,000
and uh the first night there had been

961
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:50,159
only one member of the

962
00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:51,840
security staff who had observed it he

963
00:29:53,669 --> 00:29:53,200
tells a bunch of the other people the

964
00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:53,679
next day

965
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:55,520
what happens you guessed it they all

966
00:29:58,789 --> 00:29:57,279
laughed they didn't believe him

967
00:30:00,310 --> 00:29:58,799
well lo and behold they say lightning

968
00:30:03,190 --> 00:30:00,320
doesn't strike twice that may be

969
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:03,200
the case but ufos occasionally do return

970
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:04,320
to the same location

971
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:05,919
once again and in this instance the very

972
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:07,600
next night he's out there there are

973
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:09,120
other guards on duty some of them the

974
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:11,360
ones who had laughed the night before

975
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:13,120
and they see this thing coming back down

976
00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:14,399
the missouri river once again and it

977
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:16,399
hovers next to the intake

978
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,679
for several minutes then turns around

979
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:19,440
and goes back up the river

980
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:21,120
this time they were able to get a bunch

981
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:23,919
of people out there they all saw it

982
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:26,559
see that's interesting when whenever i

983
00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:27,760
hear i don't know about you micah but

984
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:29,360
when i hear about repeatability

985
00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:32,080
of these ufo events night after night

986
00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:32,880
that's when

987
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:36,240
my my skeptical lens comes on and i do

988
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,720
begin to wonder if this is something uh

989
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:41,039
conventional if this is something

990
00:30:47,350 --> 00:30:44,720
uh man-made or possibly some sort of

991
00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:47,360
uh weather anomaly due to the

992
00:30:51,190 --> 00:30:49,200
consistency of it uh

993
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:51,200
what do you make of that idea that you

994
00:30:54,070 --> 00:30:52,480
know if this thing is happening

995
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:54,080
over consecutive nights you could look

996
00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:55,840
at something like even the

997
00:31:00,470 --> 00:30:58,640
the bentwaters case um that it's

998
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:00,480
happening over and over again

999
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:02,640
uh is this whatever it is surveilling

1000
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:03,519
the area

1001
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:06,000
constantly or is this possibly some sort

1002
00:31:11,029 --> 00:31:07,120
of

1003
00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:11,039
consistent anomaly it's difficult to say

1004
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:13,679
in this region where i live we have the

1005
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:14,799
black mountain range

1006
00:31:18,389 --> 00:31:17,279
a little further south of asheville

1007
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:18,399
where i am

1008
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:20,399
and uh in the black mountain range uh

1009
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:22,080
particularly around the area called the

1010
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,120
limbo gorge

1011
00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:25,360
it's one of the most beautiful scenic uh

1012
00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:26,559
wilderness areas

1013
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:28,399
uh really i think on the eastern united

1014
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,600
states and it's one of the largest

1015
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:31,679
gorges which they would call a canyon

1016
00:31:34,870 --> 00:31:33,440
out west but the largest uh east of the

1017
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:34,880
mississippi

1018
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:36,880
and uh i think that the geological

1019
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:39,360
features present there are probably

1020
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:42,720
a big part of what uh is is uh

1021
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:46,080
behind the the mechanism if you want to

1022
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:47,519
call it that behind what's known as the

1023
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:49,360
brown mountain lights

1024
00:31:52,789 --> 00:31:51,039
there is some variety of earth light

1025
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:52,799
phenomena that occurs there and i have

1026
00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:53,760
seen

1027
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:56,720
very good photographs over the years you

1028
00:31:59,830 --> 00:31:58,080
know i've been down there and i've had a

1029
00:32:01,750 --> 00:31:59,840
couple of experiences where there may

1030
00:32:03,669 --> 00:32:01,760
have been things that i also

1031
00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:03,679
observed myself and i know that sounds

1032
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:04,960
very dodgy wait there may have been

1033
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:06,880
things you observed but again

1034
00:32:10,549 --> 00:32:09,440
what i've seen has never been on par

1035
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:10,559
with the things that people

1036
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:11,919
have described that they have seen i

1037
00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:12,960
mean i'm talking people have said

1038
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:13,840
they've seen

1039
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:15,840
large bright white beach ball shaped

1040
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:16,960
orbs of light that

1041
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:19,760
ascend into the uh air they usually come

1042
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:21,360
off of one of the adjacent ridges

1043
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:22,880
sometimes they will travel

1044
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:24,080
over the gorge and come in their

1045
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:25,840
direction and hover and things like this

1046
00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:27,120
see i've never had that happen

1047
00:32:29,830 --> 00:32:28,480
but a lot of people describe that down

1048
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:29,840
there in the lumbal gorge so the brown

1049
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:31,200
mountain phenomena

1050
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:33,039
again that seems to be a recurring

1051
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:34,480
natural phenomena and there are

1052
00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:35,840
scientists like my friend

1053
00:32:40,389 --> 00:32:38,960
dr uh uh oh gosh i almost said albert

1054
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:40,399
goodyear that's a different scientist

1055
00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:42,960
friend of mine this is daniel that dr

1056
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:44,240
daniel cayton

1057
00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:46,480
who's an astronomer uh there at app

1058
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:47,360
state

1059
00:32:50,549 --> 00:32:49,120
uh he's again a very skeptically minded

1060
00:32:51,909 --> 00:32:50,559
person uh who has

1061
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:51,919
admitted that he'd gotten to a point of

1062
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:53,919
cynicism about brown mountain because he

1063
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:56,000
spent so many years not seeing anything

1064
00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:57,279
until last year

1065
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:01,120
when they had a pair of remote

1066
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,880
web cameras that were positioned on

1067
00:33:06,149 --> 00:33:04,320
different ridges which

1068
00:33:07,509 --> 00:33:06,159
allowed them to observe the brown

1069
00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:07,519
mountain the primary brown mountain

1070
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:08,080
ridge

1071
00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:09,360
for which the phenomena is named

1072
00:33:12,389 --> 00:33:11,039
although again i've said it shows up in

1073
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:12,399
different parts of the gorge

1074
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:14,240
but he was able to actually obtain two

1075
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:16,080
different pieces of footage that show up

1076
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:17,919
an apparent transient light phenomena

1077
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:18,880
over that ridge

1078
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:21,440
from different angles and this has

1079
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:22,799
really excited him

1080
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:24,880
because it seems although that it's like

1081
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:26,320
something kind of similar to ball

1082
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:28,080
lightning that there is again this

1083
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:30,159
unique repeatability about that region

1084
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:32,000
so yeah it does seem to happen and i

1085
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:33,679
again would think that rather than being

1086
00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:35,360
something that's a you know

1087
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:38,240
a an aircraft or something a technology

1088
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:40,480
that a lot of this stuff is indeed

1089
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:44,000
probably more likely to be um you know a

1090
00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:45,519
variety of natural

1091
00:33:48,630 --> 00:33:47,200
earthly phenomena but then you have

1092
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:48,640
something like bent waters which

1093
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:50,799
really that case is so crazy and you've

1094
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:52,080
spent a lot of time looking into that

1095
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:54,000
and so has peter robbins a lot of people

1096
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:57,200
uh again that's a that's a politically

1097
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:58,480
difficult one to discuss right now

1098
00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:00,240
because there's so many different

1099
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:01,760
opinions but i'll say this because

1100
00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:03,440
again all i'm really trying to you know

1101
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:05,120
express there's there's so much about

1102
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:06,880
you know rendlesham that there's too

1103
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:08,480
much to get into right now

1104
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:10,800
but again the fact that there was

1105
00:34:13,349 --> 00:34:11,839
something that occurred over several

1106
00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:13,359
consecutive nights

1107
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:16,079
um that was interesting but that didn't

1108
00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:17,919
sound to me like it was

1109
00:34:21,349 --> 00:34:19,679
in likelihood some kind of earth-like

1110
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:21,359
phenomena or something along those lines

1111
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:22,720
what was described did seem to be

1112
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:24,480
something that was more

1113
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:26,159
it appeared technological in origin but

1114
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:28,159
it was extremely exotic

1115
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:31,280
in its manner so you know

1116
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:33,040
yeah make of it what you will yes we'll

1117
00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:35,359
definitely have a special show just

1118
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:37,280
dedicated to randall shuma might have

1119
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:39,040
you on for that

1120
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:42,240
um well i kind of want to go back and

1121
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:44,560
for those listeners who aren't familiar

1122
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:45,599
um they can

1123
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:47,280
they can definitely read more about

1124
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:49,280
mike's experience in your book the ufo

1125
00:34:52,950 --> 00:34:50,240
singularity

1126
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:52,960
um great book one of the first i read on

1127
00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:53,760
the topic

1128
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:56,000
got me interested in your work but uh

1129
00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:57,280
what i want to sort of

1130
00:35:01,030 --> 00:35:00,240
touch on is that physiological aspect

1131
00:35:04,150 --> 00:35:01,040
micah

1132
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:04,160
of how a ufo event can

1133
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:07,520
physically alter people and one of my

1134
00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:08,560
favorite cases

1135
00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:11,680
is the cash landrum case 1980 and i know

1136
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:14,960
that you have some pretty interesting uh

1137
00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:17,440
not determinations but theories on what

1138
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:19,119
we might have been dealing with in terms

1139
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:20,480
of this case could you

1140
00:35:23,990 --> 00:35:22,320
maybe give us a brief recap of what this

1141
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:24,000
case was and what you

1142
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,359
uh possibly believe it could have been

1143
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:29,280
yeah it's again it's very difficult to

1144
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:31,359
kind of come to a determination because

1145
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:33,119
as with a lot of these ufo cases

1146
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:35,280
there was for years the assertion that

1147
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:36,800
we had all kinds of physical proof

1148
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:38,320
you know there had been burns and scorch

1149
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:39,839
marks and things on the road there near

1150
00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:40,640
dayton

1151
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:43,440
texas where this incident occurred again

1152
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:44,000
a

1153
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:58,880
so

1154
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:00,880
that that's an interesting thing to me

1155
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:03,280
because as we saw with the mike reese

1156
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:05,920
experience that coincided with a like a

1157
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:06,640
little

1158
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:08,640
flurry of what i consider to be fairly

1159
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:10,560
good quality ufo incidents that occurred

1160
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,040
there in

1161
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:13,200
you know the late latter part of 1973 we

1162
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:14,400
had the same kind of thing happening at

1163
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:16,400
the latter part of 1980

1164
00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:18,320
and uh i don't mean to say that that

1165
00:36:21,589 --> 00:36:19,839
means that there's a connection to be

1166
00:36:23,670 --> 00:36:21,599
made between what happened at uh

1167
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:23,680
randallstrom forest and what uh was

1168
00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:26,000
observed by betty cash and vicki landrum

1169
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:27,760
but again that is interesting that these

1170
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:29,760
two happen around the same time

1171
00:36:34,390 --> 00:36:32,720
their experience was december 29 1980.

1172
00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:34,400
uh betty cash had been driving

1173
00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:37,119
her car it was an oldsmobile cutlass and

1174
00:36:41,349 --> 00:36:38,800
uh joining her in that vehicle had been

1175
00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:41,359
vicki landrum and then her grandson

1176
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:42,560
who was seven years old at the time

1177
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:44,720
colby colby has appeared on a number of

1178
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:46,160
ufo programs and has been

1179
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:48,320
interviewed because betty and vicky of

1180
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:49,920
course have since passed away and betty

1181
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:50,960
had suffered from

1182
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,400
the onset of cancer in her life and

1183
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:55,920
whether or not we can directly attribute

1184
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:58,160
that to what unfolded that night in 1980

1185
00:37:01,510 --> 00:36:59,119
we don't know but

1186
00:37:02,230 --> 00:37:01,520
again the the narrative goes like this

1187
00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:02,240
that they were

1188
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:05,200
driving along this road uh which was on

1189
00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:06,880
its way into dayton texas which is where

1190
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:08,079
they lived and they've been going out to

1191
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:08,800
try and

1192
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:09,920
have dinner i think and then they were

1193
00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:11,280
going to play bingo but it was right

1194
00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:13,280
around the christmas holidays there

1195
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:15,040
between christmas and uh and new year

1196
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:17,440
which is significant about this case

1197
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:20,640
um because not only was that the reason

1198
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:22,560
that bingo places weren't open but this

1199
00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:23,200
also

1200
00:37:26,470 --> 00:37:25,599
is the problem that we have with trying

1201
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:26,480
to understand

1202
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:28,240
you know a military component as it

1203
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:29,599
relates to this case

1204
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:30,880
they're driving along it shortly after

1205
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:33,040
nine o'clock um the

1206
00:37:36,069 --> 00:37:34,960
the road there that they were traveling

1207
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:36,079
uh winds

1208
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:38,800
uh a good bit and the important thing

1209
00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:40,160
also to remember is that they're

1210
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,599
kind of like the my grease case again

1211
00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:43,280
there were trees that uh probably

1212
00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:45,040
coniferous forest that line both sides

1213
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:46,079
of the road

1214
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,640
and they at some point see through the

1215
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:50,640
trees in the distance ahead of them

1216
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:54,240
uh a light and this light

1217
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,640
uh had been at about treetop level as

1218
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:58,560
they get up closer to it this thing is

1219
00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:59,839
hovering essentially over the road and

1220
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,800
they're able to pull up and they

1221
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,400
actually stop the car

1222
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:04,400
betty cash decides to get out of the

1223
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:06,240
vehicle now there are

1224
00:38:09,589 --> 00:38:08,560
descriptions of this object that

1225
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:09,599
describe it as being

1226
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:12,800
diamond shaped okay but

1227
00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:16,400
the initial descriptions uh don't seem

1228
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:18,079
to necessarily explicitly

1229
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:20,320
say that this thing was uh diamond

1230
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:21,760
shaped they merely say that it was a

1231
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:23,119
bright light hovering over the road and

1232
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:24,720
that if anything the light was so bright

1233
00:38:26,550 --> 00:38:25,119
that it

1234
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,560
didn't allow for a clear discernment of

1235
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:28,800
the shape but colby again seven years

1236
00:38:31,109 --> 00:38:29,920
old at the time had said that he

1237
00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:31,119
believed that the thing appeared to be

1238
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:32,160
diamond shaped and

1239
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:33,839
later you begin to see that the

1240
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:36,240
descriptions given by cash and landrum

1241
00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:37,920
uh began to kind of match that

1242
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:39,359
description that it seems to have

1243
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:40,640
originated

1244
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:44,000
with colby yeah interesting i i did not

1245
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:45,359
know that

1246
00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:47,440
well yeah and see that's uh an important

1247
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:49,040
point i think that we gotta

1248
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:50,960
bring to mind here because uh the uh as

1249
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,160
a matter of fact there's a really good

1250
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:54,480
uh pod or not podcast but website that

1251
00:38:58,630 --> 00:38:55,440
i'd like to

1252
00:39:02,150 --> 00:38:58,640
make reference to the website is blue

1253
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:02,160
blurry blueblurrylines.com okay and uh

1254
00:39:05,589 --> 00:39:04,160
that website although it focuses

1255
00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:05,599
primarily on

1256
00:39:10,470 --> 00:39:08,480
the uh cash landrum uh situation i don't

1257
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:10,480
i don't think that that's the only

1258
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:12,560
uh case that it deals with and uh the

1259
00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:14,000
researcher of course who who does that

1260
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:15,520
website kurt collins i've interviewed

1261
00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:16,480
him before he's one of the most

1262
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:18,000
well-rounded researchers

1263
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:19,920
and has even to a much greater degree

1264
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:21,680
than i have has looked into the cash

1265
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,880
landrum incident

1266
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:24,560
um so you know people should definitely

1267
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:27,040
check out blueblurrylines.com and read

1268
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:28,960
some of kurt collins research great

1269
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,079
stuff and uh

1270
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:32,960
in in the most recent post by the way uh

1271
00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:35,119
was made on march 31st of this year so

1272
00:39:38,310 --> 00:39:35,839
it's well

1273
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:38,320
uh kept website and it's also up to date

1274
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:40,079
so that said uh it was kurt collins who

1275
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:41,760
had brought to my attention

1276
00:39:46,630 --> 00:39:44,800
the fact that these early

1277
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:46,640
descriptions of the object that was seen

1278
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,160
there over the highway

1279
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:50,240
and then the later description of this

1280
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:51,920
this kind of a triangular shaped or

1281
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:53,359
rather a diamond shaped craft

1282
00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:55,280
and they don't necessarily jive that's a

1283
00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:56,960
common feature among a lot of these ufo

1284
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:58,079
cases

1285
00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:00,480
again kenneth arnold initially described

1286
00:40:04,309 --> 00:40:01,200
objects that

1287
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:04,319
their their locomotion uh reminded him

1288
00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:04,880
of a

1289
00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:06,800
of like a disc skipping across the water

1290
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:08,960
a saucer or a stone if you flip it and

1291
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:10,000
skipped it across the water

1292
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:11,200
and so the press started calling these

1293
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:13,760
things flying saucers lo and behold

1294
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:16,240
and then within a few months and i'm not

1295
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,520
trying to say this to

1296
00:40:21,430 --> 00:40:19,920
again take away from what arnold saw

1297
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:21,440
because i believe he probably did see

1298
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:22,319
something

1299
00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:26,480
a few months

1300
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:28,240
he began to also say that the objects

1301
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,839
may have been disc shaped also but at

1302
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:31,200
least one of them appeared to have kind

1303
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:32,720
of a flying wing appearance so

1304
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:34,880
he kind of updated his memory and i

1305
00:40:37,829 --> 00:40:35,920
think that with the cash landrum

1306
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:37,839
incident that may have happened also but

1307
00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:39,119
so again coming back to the night of the

1308
00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:40,400
incident we have this light

1309
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:42,400
hovering over the highway we can at very

1310
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:43,440
least agree to say that there was

1311
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:44,480
definitely something producing

1312
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:45,680
illumination

1313
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:47,920
uh betty got out of the car she stood

1314
00:40:50,069 --> 00:40:49,200
and she watched it for a number of

1315
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:50,079
minutes

1316
00:40:53,349 --> 00:40:51,440
when she tried to get back into the

1317
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:53,359
vehicle she said that the metal handle

1318
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:55,040
of the door burned her hand and she had

1319
00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:56,560
to use the uh

1320
00:40:59,910 --> 00:40:58,640
part of her coat to be able to open it

1321
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,920
and she said that despite the fact that

1322
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,440
it was late december

1323
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:03,359
and even as far south as texas it can

1324
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:04,800
get chilly down there especially at

1325
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:06,720
night in december but

1326
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:08,160
she said that the heat produced by this

1327
00:41:10,790 --> 00:41:09,520
thing was enough such that she was she

1328
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:10,800
could have stood out there i mean it was

1329
00:41:13,829 --> 00:41:12,240
hot she said it felt like a hot humid

1330
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:13,839
summer day that's how much heat being

1331
00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:14,480
produced

1332
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:16,560
she tries to get back into the vehicle

1333
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:18,880
and they observe as the object begins to

1334
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:20,000
kind of move away

1335
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:22,160
and toward the forest uh what appeared

1336
00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:23,839
to be several

1337
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:27,040
chinook helicopters that kind of it

1338
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:28,480
gives the impression the way that

1339
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:30,480
that the circumstances were described

1340
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:31,920
that they were escorting the object out

1341
00:41:35,829 --> 00:41:33,599
of the area

1342
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:35,839
um betty having gotten out of the car

1343
00:41:41,030 --> 00:41:38,880
within the next 24 to 48 hours began to

1344
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:41,040
suffer what appeared to be symptoms

1345
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:42,160
consistent with

1346
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:44,560
exposure to non-ionizing radiation now

1347
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:45,680
there are a variety of different ways

1348
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:47,200
that this might happen or what different

1349
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:48,720
varieties this could be

1350
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:49,760
without getting into the science of

1351
00:41:51,990 --> 00:41:51,200
non-ionizing radiation and what

1352
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:52,000
different varieties

1353
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:54,880
there are and what they can do this kind

1354
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:56,480
of an exposure to radiation could

1355
00:42:00,829 --> 00:41:57,920
certainly cause

1356
00:42:02,230 --> 00:42:00,839
such things as perhaps a sun's like a

1357
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:02,240
sunburn-like

1358
00:42:08,309 --> 00:42:05,280
phenomena or effect on the skin and also

1359
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:08,319
could uh you know theoretically could

1360
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:10,480
probably also cause a certain sickness

1361
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:11,359
like radiation

1362
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:13,839
poisoning whatever the case betty seemed

1363
00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:14,560
to sugg

1364
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:17,040
seem to suffer these effects um vicki

1365
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:18,880
landrum and colby to a lesser degree and

1366
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:20,000
remember they didn't get out of the

1367
00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:20,560
vehicle

1368
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:23,440
right so with regard to this case i mean

1369
00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:25,280
exactly what was seen they went to the

1370
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:27,040
air force they had tried to seek

1371
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:28,800
you know help for their medical

1372
00:42:32,950 --> 00:42:31,359
conditions especially betty cash

1373
00:42:34,309 --> 00:42:32,960
the problem was that they said of course

1374
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:34,319
at that time during the holidays that

1375
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:35,119
there had been no

1376
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:37,760
known military operations occurring and

1377
00:42:40,150 --> 00:42:38,480
none of their

1378
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:40,160
chinooks none of those helicopters

1379
00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:41,760
should have been out

1380
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:43,760
and flying now there are two ways we can

1381
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:45,040
interpret that this is

1382
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:46,480
uh this means that there was some sort

1383
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:48,079
of military operation that those

1384
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:49,760
regional facilities could not account

1385
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:50,560
for

1386
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:55,040
nothing to do with that region

1387
00:42:58,150 --> 00:42:56,560
although again that's the problem that

1388
00:42:58,870 --> 00:42:58,160
many researchers over the years have had

1389
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:58,880
the biggest

1390
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:00,720
perhaps is if there were these genetic

1391
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:03,040
helicopters not only seen by

1392
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:04,560
cash and landrum but also there had been

1393
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:06,720
i think a former um

1394
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:08,160
i think it was a former law enforcement

1395
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:10,640
officer or very least off duty

1396
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:12,319
who along with his wife driving along

1397
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:13,440
they said that they didn't see any kind

1398
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:15,200
of anomalous looking lighter aircraft

1399
00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:16,319
but they certainly saw

1400
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:18,720
helicopters moving together so there

1401
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:20,240
were there were people who had said that

1402
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:21,760
they'd seen these helicopters that not

1403
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:23,359
apart from cash and lander but nobody

1404
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:24,640
can account for where they came from

1405
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:25,920
that's one of the biggest problems with

1406
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:27,920
the case

1407
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:29,599
so the other way that we might interpret

1408
00:43:33,030 --> 00:43:31,839
this is and is it fair to ask was there

1409
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:33,040
something that was going on

1410
00:43:36,309 --> 00:43:34,960
that the military did not want to

1411
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:36,319
release and they have not

1412
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:38,000
released information about an actual

1413
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:39,440
valid operation that was underway that

1414
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:40,160
night

1415
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:41,760
again cash and landrum when they first

1416
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:43,359
saw this thing they had likened it

1417
00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:45,520
in this eschatological fashion to being

1418
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:46,640
like the end of the world they said we

1419
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:47,680
weren't sure what was going on there's

1420
00:43:49,829 --> 00:43:48,800
this bright light we thought maybe the

1421
00:43:53,349 --> 00:43:49,839
world was ending

1422
00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:53,359
right later on i think betty cash had

1423
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:54,880
had phrased it differently and said you

1424
00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:56,319
know we we don't know that it was

1425
00:43:59,430 --> 00:43:57,839
necessarily aliens or something from

1426
00:44:01,430 --> 00:43:59,440
another planet but i mean

1427
00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:01,440
whatever this was i mean you know we'd

1428
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:03,440
like to know we'd like answers because

1429
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,599
you know we've been affected by it

1430
00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:07,040
mentally perhaps but more

1431
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:09,520
obviously physically too and this

1432
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:10,880
resulted in a lawsuit

1433
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:13,280
am i correct yeah that's right i think

1434
00:44:16,069 --> 00:44:15,200
that this is uh one of these famous ufo

1435
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:16,079
instances where

1436
00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:18,720
uh the the people who had claimed uh

1437
00:44:22,230 --> 00:44:19,839
damages from this

1438
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:22,240
yeah it did absolutely result in a in a

1439
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:23,920
lawsuit now that's the funny thing is

1440
00:44:28,870 --> 00:44:25,440
that again

1441
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:28,880
i uh i'm really troubled by the

1442
00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:30,800
mentality of skeptics that would assert

1443
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:32,240
such things as the following

1444
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:34,079
and i've actually seen this now i want

1445
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:35,599
to say robert schaefer

1446
00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:38,240
did not say this himself he he did an

1447
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:40,640
article on his website and i like robert

1448
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:41,680
okay he

1449
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:43,200
he was there that same year you and i

1450
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:44,240
were there at the international ufo

1451
00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:45,040
congress

1452
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:47,680
and he wrote a fairly unfriendly blog

1453
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:48,720
post about uh

1454
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:51,040
about my lecture and so i just ran up to

1455
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:52,480
him and i said hey listen you know i'm

1456
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:53,200
not

1457
00:44:57,670 --> 00:44:55,680
what you made me out to be um and if i

1458
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:57,680
have an opportunity to reach out and

1459
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:59,280
you know directly engage especially at

1460
00:45:03,109 --> 00:45:01,359
an event uh you know a skeptic

1461
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:03,119
and talk with them we often find that we

1462
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:04,480
have a lot more in common

1463
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:06,400
than we differ on so this is no way me

1464
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:08,640
attacking bob schaefer but somebody of

1465
00:45:12,790 --> 00:45:10,480
of uh skeptical ilk

1466
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,800
commenting on a blog post he did at his

1467
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:14,400
website bad ufos

1468
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:16,960
in relation to this case had said uh

1469
00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:19,119
that betty cash had probably laid under

1470
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:20,160
a heat lamp

1471
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:22,079
to achieve the burned appearance and

1472
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:24,079
then drink uh drank toxic

1473
00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:26,079
uh chemicals household cleaners and

1474
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:28,160
things nearly killing herself

1475
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:30,560
so as to fake the effects of radiation

1476
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:31,839
poisoning because they were trying to

1477
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:38,470
okay that's one theory now that's more

1478
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:40,319
likely you see than them seeing a ufo

1479
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:42,640
because we have no evidence of aliens

1480
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:44,960
and therefore it's more likely that this

1481
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:46,640
was just a you know a hoax a heist they

1482
00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:48,640
were just trying to get money

1483
00:45:52,950 --> 00:45:50,560
the skeptical mind not all skeptics do

1484
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:52,960
this by the way no i'm very skeptical i

1485
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:57,119
i call myself a skeptic but i don't go

1486
00:46:02,309 --> 00:46:00,319
fabricating cockamamie stories

1487
00:46:03,990 --> 00:46:02,319
that offer a quote-unquote believable

1488
00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:04,000
explanation just to try and detract from

1489
00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:05,440
the idea that something out of the

1490
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:06,880
ordinary was observed and i don't think

1491
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:08,960
that what was observed was necessarily

1492
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:10,560
all that out of the ordinary again if

1493
00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:12,880
you want my speculative opinion on what

1494
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:14,160
was observed it was probably

1495
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,839
something along the lines of a

1496
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:17,680
high-yield thermal emission device

1497
00:46:19,589 --> 00:46:18,880
possibly something and there are patents

1498
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:19,599
that exist for

1499
00:46:23,670 --> 00:46:21,839
you know uh for uh devices like this

1500
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:23,680
although the few that i've observed are

1501
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:24,640
probably

1502
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:26,240
again just a handful of those which

1503
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:27,680
might be uh perhaps

1504
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:29,520
not only out there but also some of

1505
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:31,760
which may be in use and have been

1506
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:33,440
tested by military agencies why they

1507
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:34,560
were doing this test right around

1508
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:36,000
christmas

1509
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:37,680
that's anybody's guess and again there

1510
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:40,000
is no documentation that supports that

1511
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:41,440
theory so that's why i have to say this

1512
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:42,079
is speculative

1513
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:43,520
because again people said that they saw

1514
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:45,599
chinooks in the air that that night that

1515
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:47,760
doesn't jive with the official records

1516
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:49,359
we've never been able to really uh to my

1517
00:46:51,589 --> 00:46:51,280
knowledge at least uh reconcile those

1518
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:51,599
two

1519
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:54,480
issues but there are such things as

1520
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:56,319
patents that describe a thermal

1521
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:57,760
emission device and i wrote a blog about

1522
00:47:00,870 --> 00:46:59,440
this a while back that suggests

1523
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:00,880
that an object perhaps that would be

1524
00:47:04,069 --> 00:47:02,640
used for the very quick inflation of a

1525
00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:04,079
large hot air balloon or something like

1526
00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:04,800
that

1527
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:07,119
might be useful when i compared notes

1528
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:09,040
with kirk collins about that

1529
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:10,400
he said well now that's very interesting

1530
00:47:15,510 --> 00:47:12,400
micah because he said in those initial

1531
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:15,520
descriptions given by cash in landrum

1532
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,520
rather than the the the diamond shape

1533
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:19,280
that colby kind of described in that

1534
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:20,960
they later started talking about

1535
00:47:24,790 --> 00:47:23,440
when they were asked about that and what

1536
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,800
it looked like

1537
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:26,400
they said it was if anything

1538
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:27,920
balloon-like

1539
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:31,440
oh okay so to my way of thinking i i

1540
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,240
wondered if there

1541
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:34,160
if there might not have been something

1542
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:35,920
uh that was again

1543
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:39,920
capable of a lot of energetic output

1544
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:42,000
it would seem to suggest that whatever

1545
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:43,680
the the source of this energy was

1546
00:47:48,549 --> 00:47:45,760
capable of causing these burns

1547
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:48,559
uh and and the uh the ensuing radiation

1548
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:50,800
sickness-like

1549
00:47:54,069 --> 00:47:52,400
issues but then there have been other

1550
00:47:55,589 --> 00:47:54,079
researchers like brad sparks who had

1551
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:55,599
suggested that because there was no

1552
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:57,520
direct evidence of radiation found in

1553
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:58,800
the environment in the

1554
00:48:02,390 --> 00:48:00,240
general locality where that incident

1555
00:48:03,750 --> 00:48:02,400
took place he said he couldn't conceive

1556
00:48:06,230 --> 00:48:03,760
of that sickness being induced by

1557
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:06,240
anything but something chemical so

1558
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:07,839
you know again i think that part of the

1559
00:48:10,069 --> 00:48:09,440
problem that we're we're looking at here

1560
00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:10,079
is

1561
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:13,119
what caused uh betty cash and also the

1562
00:48:16,069 --> 00:48:13,920
landrums to

1563
00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:16,079
fall ill is there any evidence that that

1564
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:17,359
really was something as

1565
00:48:20,309 --> 00:48:19,200
in terms of a source of radiation could

1566
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:20,319
it have been something else that would

1567
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:22,000
have caused similar effects

1568
00:48:25,109 --> 00:48:23,920
and would that rule out the nuclear

1569
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:25,119
component altogether

1570
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:26,559
so those are some of the issues that we

1571
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:28,160
face with that case but again it just it

1572
00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:29,760
really infuriates me ryan when people

1573
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:30,720
say

1574
00:48:34,069 --> 00:48:32,319
oh well you know they did this to

1575
00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:34,079
themselves they were trying to get money

1576
00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:36,559
right i mean you and i both know there's

1577
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:38,240
very little money to be had as a

1578
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,280
researcher i

1579
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:41,839
i i would assume there's not much to be

1580
00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:42,559
had being

1581
00:48:46,870 --> 00:48:44,240
an experiencer either you have

1582
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:46,880
everything to lose in my opinion

1583
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:49,599
you know maybe you get lucky you strike

1584
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:51,760
a movie deal or something but i mean

1585
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:55,599
to risk your entire

1586
00:48:59,510 --> 00:48:58,160
mortality to do this uh just seems a

1587
00:49:02,710 --> 00:48:59,520
little

1588
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,720
mean we don't have

1589
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:04,480
either of these individuals here any

1590
00:49:07,990 --> 00:49:06,720
longer as this is often the case with

1591
00:49:10,150 --> 00:49:08,000
many ufo

1592
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:10,160
incidents to tell us their side of the

1593
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,040
story anymore

1594
00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:14,160
we have kobe and that's about it so you

1595
00:49:17,270 --> 00:49:15,040
know

1596
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:17,280
it will go down in the annals of ufo

1597
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:18,559
history is one of the more

1598
00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:21,119
uh compelling cases for sure but will we

1599
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:22,240
ever find an answer

1600
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:25,680
uh frustratingly we often never do

1601
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:27,119
and in this case we probably won't

1602
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:28,720
either but you know again

1603
00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:31,040
talking about people who profit from

1604
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:32,800
ufology i mean i will acknowledge

1605
00:49:36,470 --> 00:49:35,040
my own yeah you know to an extent

1606
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:36,480
there's i have a certain

1607
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:40,400
degree of distaste for ufo events

1608
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:41,760
and this coming from a person who in the

1609
00:49:43,990 --> 00:49:43,599
past has coordinated some fairly large

1610
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:44,000
events

1611
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:46,720
myself let's not forget uh i haven't

1612
00:49:48,870 --> 00:49:47,040
done

1613
00:49:50,549 --> 00:49:48,880
any of that in recent years because it's

1614
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:50,559
more trouble usually than it's worth and

1615
00:49:54,549 --> 00:49:52,720
also my ideology has changed

1616
00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:54,559
a good bit too i used to kind of think

1617
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:56,240
it was more

1618
00:49:59,349 --> 00:49:57,680
like oh let's just get a bunch of people

1619
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:59,359
who we may not necessarily agree with

1620
00:50:01,589 --> 00:50:00,480
and just get them all together because

1621
00:50:03,349 --> 00:50:01,599
you know for

1622
00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:03,359
both educated and also for entertaining

1623
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:05,599
purposes this will be of merit and

1624
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:08,319
and then i i get the kind of um feedback

1625
00:50:11,109 --> 00:50:09,440
from people i couldn't believe that you

1626
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:11,119
would associate with eric von danikon or

1627
00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:12,160
that you would associate with this

1628
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:13,440
person or that person

1629
00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:16,400
to me you know seeing something that i

1630
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:17,920
would consider for instance ryan to be

1631
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:18,400
complete

1632
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:21,440
bunk you know i can still find that

1633
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:21,920
subject

1634
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,720
interesting but when i hear somebody

1635
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:26,640
discussing a very fringe claim or

1636
00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:28,400
something very far out it just makes me

1637
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:29,200
want

1638
00:50:33,109 --> 00:50:30,960
to investigate those claims more

1639
00:50:34,870 --> 00:50:33,119
skeptically myself it doesn't oh wow

1640
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:34,880
i'm suddenly brainwashed and i believe

1641
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,800
that you know humankind was seated by

1642
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,880
aliens that visited back in you know

1643
00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:41,040
you know the dawn of civilization

1644
00:50:44,309 --> 00:50:42,160
whatever the case you know

1645
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:44,319
again i think it's fine to have an

1646
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:45,920
interest in things that you may not also

1647
00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:46,800
believe in

1648
00:50:49,510 --> 00:50:48,000
because culturally those things

1649
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:49,520
nonetheless are significant now that

1650
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:50,559
said

1651
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,800
there are issues i definitely have with

1652
00:50:54,870 --> 00:50:54,480
like the culture not the culture i'm

1653
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:54,880
sorry

1654
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:57,520
the industry will say of ufology okay

1655
00:51:00,870 --> 00:50:59,280
let's let's put on a great big event

1656
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:00,880
let's sell a bunch of books let's sell a

1657
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:02,319
bunch of dvds let's make a lot of money

1658
00:51:05,030 --> 00:51:03,760
but then again

1659
00:51:06,549 --> 00:51:05,040
having been on that side of things you

1660
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:06,559
don't usually make a lot of money and

1661
00:51:09,510 --> 00:51:08,000
what do people go to these events for

1662
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:09,520
well they're interested in the subject

1663
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:11,680
is it wrong or people

1664
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:14,720
or should people be disallowed to have

1665
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:15,839
an interest in this

1666
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:17,920
subject just because some people are

1667
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:19,200
naysayers and think that there's nothing

1668
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:20,400
to ufology i think

1669
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:22,720
when you really break it down on those

1670
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:25,040
terms you start seeing how absurd it is

1671
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:27,119
the efforts to try and discredit people

1672
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,400
like for instance there's a great

1673
00:51:31,990 --> 00:51:30,000
example travis walton

1674
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:32,000
travis walton has sold books he does

1675
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:33,760
speaking engagements he's often paid for

1676
00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:34,240
them

1677
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:35,760
but if you sit down and you talk to that

1678
00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:37,200
guy he is just as interested in this

1679
00:51:39,910 --> 00:51:38,319
stuff as uri

1680
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:39,920
he's extremely approachable very

1681
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:42,880
friendly no i don't think he's a con man

1682
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:44,800
you know and like so many people who go

1683
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:46,240
to these kind of events travis is

1684
00:51:49,270 --> 00:51:47,440
looking for answers

1685
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:49,280
uh philip class of course was convinced

1686
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:50,880
that well travis was just trying to make

1687
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:51,599
money

1688
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:53,359
everybody in his view was just trying to

1689
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:54,800
make money let's see how we can

1690
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:56,160
pull the wool over people's eyes and win

1691
00:51:59,990 --> 00:51:58,319
the national enquirer uh you know five

1692
00:52:01,510 --> 00:52:00,000
thousand dollar ufo championship or

1693
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,520
whatever i mean

1694
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:03,040
i don't think that every person who says

1695
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:04,800
that they see something unusual

1696
00:52:09,030 --> 00:52:07,200
is just making stuff up for money and i

1697
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:09,040
and like you correctly said

1698
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:11,839
there are far better ways to become uh

1699
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:12,240
you know

1700
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:14,000
not only famous or to make money but to

1701
00:52:19,109 --> 00:52:16,000
make lots more money

1702
00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:19,119
than faking a ufo incident absolutely

1703
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:20,400
you know and i'm glad you brought that

1704
00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:22,720
up man because you know

1705
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:25,200
yes there are so many people who come to

1706
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:26,160
these events

1707
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:28,800
uh to have conversations to have debate

1708
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:29,200
to

1709
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:34,559
while this can be

1710
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:37,119
you know detrimental at times it can

1711
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:39,520
also be revelatory for some individuals

1712
00:52:42,549 --> 00:52:41,440
uh but what i think a good thing you

1713
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:42,559
brought up is

1714
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:45,760
that the the the skeptical side of it we

1715
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:46,800
often look at

1716
00:52:52,470 --> 00:52:50,720
skeptics as the enemy and the further

1717
00:52:55,109 --> 00:52:52,480
i've gotten into this topic as i'm sure

1718
00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:55,119
you have the more i realize that

1719
00:53:01,589 --> 00:52:58,720
skepticism is not only essential it's

1720
00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:01,599
it's healthy and it actually helps your

1721
00:53:04,230 --> 00:53:02,720
research

1722
00:53:06,150 --> 00:53:04,240
i mean if we were just constantly going

1723
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:06,160
down rabbit holes of uh

1724
00:53:09,670 --> 00:53:08,720
you know witness testimony and uh you

1725
00:53:12,790 --> 00:53:09,680
know the more of a

1726
00:53:15,829 --> 00:53:12,800
religious side of just belief

1727
00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:15,839
uh where is that going to get us

1728
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:17,599
so i'm very happy to hear you bring up

1729
00:53:21,589 --> 00:53:20,319
the idea of skepticism

1730
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:21,599
and we'll get into that a little bit

1731
00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:23,599
later in terms of

1732
00:53:27,030 --> 00:53:25,119
a certain book that you brought to my

1733
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:27,040
attention but there is

1734
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,240
one more case i can't not talk about and

1735
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:31,839
this is one you and i have talked about

1736
00:53:35,270 --> 00:53:33,680
and one i heard about on your podcast

1737
00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:35,280
actually recently um

1738
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:36,559
and that's the case of frederick

1739
00:53:41,670 --> 00:53:39,359
valentich and i

1740
00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:41,680
i covered this case on a show on the

1741
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:43,040
travel channel recently

1742
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:46,400
and in doing that my research came from

1743
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:48,000
a your podcast b

1744
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:51,040
uh the glory of the internet and uh my

1745
00:53:54,710 --> 00:53:53,200
new york public library here um

1746
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:54,720
could you sort of run us through this

1747
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:56,559
extremely compelling case of

1748
00:54:02,549 --> 00:54:00,079
a pilot who uh possibly saw something of

1749
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:02,559
unearthly origin yeah absolutely and by

1750
00:54:04,710 --> 00:54:04,240
the way congratulations and glad to hear

1751
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:04,720
that you've

1752
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:06,240
been talking about this on television

1753
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:07,839
because again it's a it's a case that's

1754
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:10,400
near and dear to my heart

1755
00:54:13,829 --> 00:54:12,400
i will warn people it's important not to

1756
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:13,839
allow yourself to become emotionally

1757
00:54:18,790 --> 00:54:15,119
attached to your work

1758
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:18,800
although often it does happen and so

1759
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:20,079
i kind of think that you know you have

1760
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:22,000
to be able to use your

1761
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:24,480
i liken it to a hard drive that has

1762
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:25,599
separate partitions

1763
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:27,040
and each partition can have a different

1764
00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:29,040
operating system uh there is for

1765
00:54:33,990 --> 00:54:31,520
instance my rational cold hard logical

1766
00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:34,000
mind and then there is my mind that is

1767
00:54:36,789 --> 00:54:34,559
open to

1768
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:36,799
the spiritual you know and and those

1769
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:38,720
things unseen yet felt

1770
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:40,559
in the rarest of instances of the human

1771
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,319
experience and i think that you know

1772
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:44,160
those things don't have to necessarily

1773
00:54:48,390 --> 00:54:46,319
conflict with each other and these days

1774
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:48,400
this attitude is simply that oh well you

1775
00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:49,920
know we have to say

1776
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:51,920
you know black is black and white is

1777
00:54:56,549 --> 00:54:54,079
white day is day night is not

1778
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:56,559
everything is just so two-dimensional

1779
00:54:59,670 --> 00:54:58,079
and i don't think that that does justice

1780
00:55:00,549 --> 00:54:59,680
to the complexity of human thought and

1781
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:00,559
experience

1782
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:03,760
okay that said um i don't look at

1783
00:55:08,549 --> 00:55:06,960
the valentich disappearance as a

1784
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:08,559
open and shut black and white kind of

1785
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:10,640
ufo case

1786
00:55:13,990 --> 00:55:12,240
and i also this is one of these

1787
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:14,000
instances where my own personal

1788
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:16,480
connections to individuals directly

1789
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:18,240
involved with the case

1790
00:55:21,270 --> 00:55:19,520
not the pilot obviously because he

1791
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:21,280
disappeared but his girlfriend at the

1792
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,119
time who's become a good friend of mine

1793
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:24,960
um you have to make that distinction

1794
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:26,480
between being a friend and being

1795
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:27,920
you know caring for someone like that

1796
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:29,599
and then also looking

1797
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:32,240
logically at the case so there's our our

1798
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:33,040
disclaimer

1799
00:55:36,069 --> 00:55:35,359
frederick valentich you know he had been

1800
00:55:39,589 --> 00:55:36,079
flying

1801
00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:39,599
a cessna 182 l uh over the past straight

1802
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:42,079
it was uh 21st of october 1978 and as

1803
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:42,799
he's flying

1804
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:45,920
south his intended route had been to

1805
00:55:49,190 --> 00:55:48,319
kind of fly southwest along the coast

1806
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:49,200
and then

1807
00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:52,000
due southeast to king island there are

1808
00:55:55,670 --> 00:55:54,240
some weird aspects to this case because

1809
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:55,680
the flight log that he'd filled out of

1810
00:55:59,910 --> 00:55:57,520
course uh describes

1811
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:59,920
a flight path and whatnot but he left

1812
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:00,880
much later than

1813
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:03,440
what the uh the flight plan had uh

1814
00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:04,319
stated

1815
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:06,480
right the lights on the runway at king

1816
00:56:09,829 --> 00:56:07,920
island were never turned on because they

1817
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:09,839
had not apparently been notified by

1818
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:11,440
valentich that he was planning to fly

1819
00:56:15,430 --> 00:56:12,480
there

1820
00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:15,440
that was considered strange um what

1821
00:56:20,150 --> 00:56:16,640
essentially happens is

1822
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:20,160
he's flying that evening uh he is

1823
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:23,280
uh taking off you know shortly before

1824
00:56:26,309 --> 00:56:24,880
i guess shortly before dark and i think

1825
00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:26,319
while he's flying it wasn't completely

1826
00:56:29,750 --> 00:56:27,440
black dark out

1827
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,760
although it was beginning to get dark it

1828
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:31,359
seems what valentich was trying to do he

1829
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:32,799
had a test coming up and he was trying

1830
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:35,040
to get some night flying hours

1831
00:56:39,990 --> 00:56:38,319
in which he didn't have a lot of uh

1832
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:40,000
so being a somewhat inexperienced

1833
00:56:44,150 --> 00:56:42,160
nighttime pilot i think definitely is

1834
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:44,160
something that figures into this case

1835
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:45,680
and what may have happened to him but as

1836
00:56:48,870 --> 00:56:47,040
he's flying down

1837
00:56:51,109 --> 00:56:48,880
on his uh course for king island

1838
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:51,119
melbourne air traffic control

1839
00:56:55,430 --> 00:56:54,079
begins uh receiving communications from

1840
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:55,440
valentich and he is

1841
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:57,599
uh identified of course as delta sierra

1842
00:57:00,549 --> 00:56:58,720
juliet

1843
00:57:01,990 --> 00:57:00,559
and he's contacting melbourne and saying

1844
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:02,000
melbourne do you have any traffic at

1845
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:03,200
this altitude

1846
00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:05,760
they've got uh i think at this time

1847
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:06,400
they've got

1848
00:57:09,589 --> 00:57:08,799
valentich on the uh on the radar i think

1849
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:09,599
later on

1850
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,960
have been on the radar but at that point

1851
00:57:15,430 --> 00:57:14,160
they had him

1852
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:15,440
and uh they said we don't have any

1853
00:57:18,069 --> 00:57:16,559
traffic at your altitude but he's

1854
00:57:19,589 --> 00:57:18,079
describing some sort of an object

1855
00:57:21,190 --> 00:57:19,599
some sort of a green light or some

1856
00:57:23,430 --> 00:57:21,200
object with a green light on it and it's

1857
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:23,440
flying and it's kind of going in circles

1858
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:25,760
and um at one point he describes that is

1859
00:57:29,030 --> 00:57:27,680
it is orbiting him and he is orbiting it

1860
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:29,040
in other words it seemed to be that he

1861
00:57:32,549 --> 00:57:30,480
was flying in a circle

1862
00:57:33,510 --> 00:57:32,559
and that this aircraft was kind of you

1863
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:33,520
know

1864
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,400
apparently kind of keeping pace with him

1865
00:57:41,430 --> 00:57:38,559
in this orbiting fashion

1866
00:57:43,829 --> 00:57:41,440
which is what led uh robert schaefer to

1867
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:43,839
consider whether indeed that orbiting

1868
00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:45,839
uh flight movement that he was

1869
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:47,200
describing whether or not he might have

1870
00:57:49,510 --> 00:57:48,480
actually been going into what's called a

1871
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:49,520
death spiral that's

1872
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:51,839
horrific if you think about it now

1873
00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:53,200
there's a distinct possibility that

1874
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:54,559
whatever happened to valentich that

1875
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:56,480
night i mean involved a crash and that

1876
00:58:01,349 --> 00:57:58,880
the wreckage was never found heck you

1877
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,359
know if a plane like mh370 can vanish

1878
00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:03,359
and that we can't find it after all of

1879
00:58:07,990 --> 00:58:06,400
the resources and all of the uh effort

1880
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:08,000
in that search you know i i don't think

1881
00:58:12,549 --> 00:58:09,599
it would be difficult for a 182

1882
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:12,559
l cessna to do the same now what

1883
00:58:18,549 --> 00:58:15,280
valencic begins to describe

1884
00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:18,559
during this this famous dialogue between

1885
00:58:22,470 --> 00:58:20,240
melbourne air traffic control

1886
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:22,480
and he is this object that you know kind

1887
00:58:27,190 --> 00:58:24,720
of takes off and then it comes back and

1888
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:27,200
at some point he asks melbourne air

1889
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:28,079
traffic control

1890
00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:30,000
again about this this object and he says

1891
00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:31,200
uh melbourne this

1892
00:58:34,470 --> 00:58:32,880
the object is directly above me the

1893
00:58:35,990 --> 00:58:34,480
object's directly above me and it's

1894
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:36,000
it's hovering it's hovering and it's not

1895
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:38,000
an aircraft

1896
00:58:43,910 --> 00:58:41,040
and then this is where it really gets

1897
00:58:45,349 --> 00:58:43,920
i mean cold-blooded eerie i think

1898
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:45,359
because

1899
00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:47,440
the recording which was released to

1900
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:49,040
family members and there were two mufon

1901
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:50,559
investigators in the united states who

1902
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:51,599
also reviewed

1903
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:52,720
the recording and we'll come back to

1904
00:58:56,069 --> 00:58:54,640
that in a moment but uh

1905
00:58:57,510 --> 00:58:56,079
what the public has access to of course

1906
00:58:59,030 --> 00:58:57,520
are the transcripts on the recording it

1907
00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:59,040
was said that there was about 17 well

1908
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,799
i'm sorry 14 seconds of metallic

1909
00:59:03,750 --> 00:59:02,319
scraping noise

1910
00:59:06,309 --> 00:59:03,760
after he says it's hovering and it's not

1911
00:59:07,589 --> 00:59:06,319
an aircraft and then the story goes that

1912
00:59:11,270 --> 00:59:07,599
they lost

1913
00:59:12,549 --> 00:59:11,280
uh contact with valentich so

1914
00:59:15,190 --> 00:59:12,559
yeah i'd always been fascinated with

1915
00:59:16,870 --> 00:59:15,200
that case ryan and at one point uh one

1916
00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:16,880
of my listeners in australia wrote to me

1917
00:59:18,870 --> 00:59:18,160
and said hey micah you know i've got a

1918
00:59:20,309 --> 00:59:18,880
friend who

1919
00:59:21,750 --> 00:59:20,319
was freddie's girlfriend when he went

1920
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:21,760
missing i think that you you know you

1921
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:23,280
two should catch up and talk

1922
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,640
wow and you know at first it didn't even

1923
00:59:30,710 --> 00:59:28,160
dawn on me what this person was saying

1924
00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:30,720
because they said um freddy's girlfriend

1925
00:59:35,910 --> 00:59:34,640
who's freddie where oh and i remember uh

1926
00:59:37,030 --> 00:59:35,920
reading that email and going to sleep

1927
00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:37,040
and then getting up the next morning and

1928
00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:38,960
going back and re-reading the email

1929
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:42,160
i'm like oh freddy freddy frederick

1930
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:42,960
valentich

1931
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:45,200
so he says yeah ronda is a good friend

1932
00:59:48,309 --> 00:59:46,880
she works here with me and you know she

1933
00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:48,319
said that she would be happy to talk to

1934
00:59:53,430 --> 00:59:50,640
you so we arranged for a skype

1935
00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:53,440
and uh brandy glass in hand and and here

1936
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:54,480
in my bunker

1937
00:59:58,150 --> 00:59:57,119
uh it was you know late at night on mind

1938
00:59:59,349 --> 00:59:58,160
and then you know of course early

1939
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:59,359
morning in australia where she and her

1940
01:00:01,190 --> 01:00:00,000
husband joe

1941
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:01,200
were and they were sitting there

1942
01:00:05,030 --> 01:00:03,599
drinking coffee and you know and see the

1943
01:00:06,710 --> 01:00:05,040
the trees and stuff and the sunshine in

1944
01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:06,720
the background it was really sweet we

1945
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:08,240
had this this great

1946
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:09,839
conversation and i talked with rhonda

1947
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:12,640
about just all sorts of different things

1948
01:00:15,829 --> 01:00:14,160
in relation to this case she has kept

1949
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:15,839
every newspaper clipping she has i mean

1950
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:18,160
scrapbooks full of stuff about this case

1951
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:20,000
uh not only for her emotional attachment

1952
01:00:22,870 --> 01:00:21,760
to it but i mean it's it's fascinating

1953
01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:22,880
because

1954
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:24,880
rhonda like so many she had this

1955
01:00:28,309 --> 01:00:26,319
personal experience she may not have

1956
01:00:29,270 --> 01:00:28,319
seen a ufo but she knows the story and

1957
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:29,280
she was of course

1958
01:00:32,630 --> 01:00:31,520
uh she called it an interrogation but

1959
01:00:34,630 --> 01:00:32,640
she was interviewed by the

1960
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:34,640
air authority there in australia because

1961
01:00:37,430 --> 01:00:36,160
they were trying to find out if anybody

1962
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:37,440
knew anything about valentich and they

1963
01:00:40,150 --> 01:00:38,799
had to look at all possibilities and

1964
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:40,160
they couldn't rule out the possibility

1965
01:00:42,549 --> 01:00:41,440
that maybe he had planned his

1966
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:42,559
disappearance

1967
01:00:47,109 --> 01:00:45,599
or something like that um and i have

1968
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:47,119
heard those anecdotal reports of people

1969
01:00:49,190 --> 01:00:47,760
there was one

1970
01:00:51,349 --> 01:00:49,200
in which a person claimed that they were

1971
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:51,359
in i think it was the bahamas but they

1972
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:53,040
met a guy who claimed he was frederick

1973
01:00:57,270 --> 01:00:54,480
valentich um

1974
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:57,280
there's very little in the way of uh

1975
01:00:59,430 --> 01:00:57,920
substance

1976
01:01:01,510 --> 01:00:59,440
let alone validity i think to those

1977
01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:01,520
stories but they do come up from time to

1978
01:01:03,829 --> 01:01:02,160
time

1979
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:03,839
uh rhonda on the other hand she has no

1980
01:01:06,789 --> 01:01:05,280
idea what happened to him but she

1981
01:01:08,309 --> 01:01:06,799
certainly took an interest in ufos

1982
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:08,319
thereafter and

1983
01:01:12,549 --> 01:01:10,880
one of the things that's weird ryan is

1984
01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:12,559
that a few years ago the uh

1985
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:14,880
the australian government did post its

1986
01:01:19,589 --> 01:01:16,319
uh files on the valencia

1987
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:19,599
case online and a number of us uh

1988
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:21,440
downloaded those and and read the file i

1989
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:22,960
have a copy of them

1990
01:01:26,789 --> 01:01:25,520
myself and they described valentich as

1991
01:01:29,109 --> 01:01:26,799
being kind of you know depressed

1992
01:01:30,870 --> 01:01:29,119
dark not a friday night type they quote

1993
01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:30,880
rhonda saying and i when i talked with

1994
01:01:33,349 --> 01:01:32,160
her i said you know was he a depressed

1995
01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:33,359
kind of person do you think that could

1996
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:34,319
have contributed to this

1997
01:01:37,270 --> 01:01:35,839
you know could it have been a suicide

1998
01:01:38,870 --> 01:01:37,280
and she said you know he wasn't really

1999
01:01:39,910 --> 01:01:38,880
like that and i've read those documents

2000
01:01:41,430 --> 01:01:39,920
that you're talking about and i know

2001
01:01:42,549 --> 01:01:41,440
what they said that i said

2002
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:42,559
and yeah i might have said he wasn't

2003
01:01:45,829 --> 01:01:43,760
exactly a friday night type but he

2004
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,839
wasn't depressed he wasn't a loner

2005
01:01:49,109 --> 01:01:47,280
anything like that i mean she said we

2006
01:01:51,270 --> 01:01:49,119
love to go dancing you know he was very

2007
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:51,280
you know well-dressed you know very you

2008
01:01:53,829 --> 01:01:52,480
know fashionable

2009
01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:53,839
uh he would come in he was very friendly

2010
01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:54,960
when he would come in and see her at

2011
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:56,160
work and he would talk with people and

2012
01:01:58,870 --> 01:01:57,359
things like that

2013
01:02:00,150 --> 01:01:58,880
she said that the strangest thing though

2014
01:02:01,190 --> 01:02:00,160
had less to do with freddie and it had

2015
01:02:02,710 --> 01:02:01,200
to do with an incident that occurred

2016
01:02:04,390 --> 01:02:02,720
about a year after he vanished she was

2017
01:02:05,349 --> 01:02:04,400
in a department store where she worked

2018
01:02:07,910 --> 01:02:05,359
at the time

2019
01:02:09,029 --> 01:02:07,920
and a gentleman comes up to her and he

2020
01:02:10,710 --> 01:02:09,039
says

2021
01:02:12,069 --> 01:02:10,720
uh i remember you you're rhonda rushton

2022
01:02:13,510 --> 01:02:12,079
you were freddie's girlfriend and

2023
01:02:15,589 --> 01:02:13,520
she didn't recognize him well he was

2024
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:15,599
with the earth uh the authority and he

2025
01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:16,559
had been one of the

2026
01:02:19,829 --> 01:02:18,400
people who had helped with the uh

2027
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:19,839
interview that

2028
01:02:24,630 --> 01:02:23,039
yeah uh of rhonda rush and uh

2029
01:02:26,549 --> 01:02:24,640
he seems to indicate to her that the

2030
01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:26,559
recording that was released to guido

2031
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:29,760
uh valentich his father that there was

2032
01:02:33,349 --> 01:02:31,200
well and this is what's funny they

2033
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:33,359
described that recording as being an

2034
01:02:36,309 --> 01:02:35,760
edited recording the edited recording of

2035
01:02:37,829 --> 01:02:36,319
the

2036
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:37,839
dialogue with air traffic control was

2037
01:02:42,069 --> 01:02:40,079
released and i'd always wondered

2038
01:02:43,109 --> 01:02:42,079
okay what do they mean by edited right

2039
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:43,119
yeah well

2040
01:02:48,630 --> 01:02:46,559
what what didn't they hear yeah and this

2041
01:02:50,230 --> 01:02:48,640
conversation right yeah where uh

2042
01:02:51,510 --> 01:02:50,240
rhonda's talking with this fella he

2043
01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:51,520
seems to indicate that

2044
01:02:55,910 --> 01:02:54,480
after the metallic scraping noise that

2045
01:02:56,789 --> 01:02:55,920
after that portion of the audio that

2046
01:02:59,029 --> 01:02:56,799
there may have been

2047
01:03:00,630 --> 01:02:59,039
further dialogue which is not on the

2048
01:03:01,829 --> 01:03:00,640
transcripts and presumably not on the

2049
01:03:05,109 --> 01:03:01,839
tape that was released now

2050
01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:05,119
so i asked if i asked for clarification

2051
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:05,760
i said hold on

2052
01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:07,200
are you telling me that there's

2053
01:03:09,990 --> 01:03:08,640
allegedly more to that recording and she

2054
01:03:11,589 --> 01:03:10,000
said that was the impression that i was

2055
01:03:13,029 --> 01:03:11,599
given during this conversation

2056
01:03:14,789 --> 01:03:13,039
but nobody's been able to hear this but

2057
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:14,799
we do know that what was released

2058
01:03:18,309 --> 01:03:16,559
to the very few who have copies was

2059
01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:18,319
described as an edited tape

2060
01:03:22,950 --> 01:03:21,760
okay that's weird um another strange

2061
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:22,960
thing is that the

2062
01:03:26,870 --> 01:03:25,760
the valentich family had written a book

2063
01:03:30,230 --> 01:03:26,880
apparently about

2064
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:30,240
the case which was stolen and uh

2065
01:03:33,029 --> 01:03:31,760
it was again the book that they wrote

2066
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:33,039
was just a manuscript that they had in

2067
01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:34,240
their home but somebody came into the

2068
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:36,240
home and stole the manuscript

2069
01:03:39,270 --> 01:03:38,079
stole that and uh they never found out

2070
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:39,280
who i asked

2071
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:41,280
rhonda did she have any idea who it

2072
01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:42,319
might have been and she said well in

2073
01:03:45,349 --> 01:03:44,160
likelihood that was probably you know

2074
01:03:46,870 --> 01:03:45,359
some journalists who wanted to be able

2075
01:03:48,309 --> 01:03:46,880
to you know have a scoop or something

2076
01:03:49,829 --> 01:03:48,319
like that so they didn't allege that

2077
01:03:50,789 --> 01:03:49,839
there was some government conspiracy but

2078
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:50,799
i didn't think that that was kind of

2079
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:52,000
unusual that the

2080
01:03:56,230 --> 01:03:54,720
the family's own personal account of

2081
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:56,240
life after freddie disappeared was

2082
01:03:59,270 --> 01:03:56,960
stolen

2083
01:04:00,549 --> 01:03:59,280
from them and taken and never recovered

2084
01:04:01,910 --> 01:04:00,559
yeah

2085
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:01,920
and the other thing i asked her too is i

2086
01:04:05,670 --> 01:04:03,680
said you know listen

2087
01:04:06,950 --> 01:04:05,680
uh what do you think about you know him

2088
01:04:08,470 --> 01:04:06,960
flying uh

2089
01:04:09,750 --> 01:04:08,480
later and she said you know here's the

2090
01:04:11,349 --> 01:04:09,760
thing that was our three-month

2091
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:11,359
anniversary i was supposed to be on the

2092
01:04:13,670 --> 01:04:12,400
plane with him

2093
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:13,680
she said i was supposed to be flying

2094
01:04:17,190 --> 01:04:15,039
with him that night but i didn't get off

2095
01:04:18,789 --> 01:04:17,200
work in time called my mom and dad

2096
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:18,799
begged him to come get me they had plans

2097
01:04:21,670 --> 01:04:20,079
so they couldn't come get me we didn't

2098
01:04:23,029 --> 01:04:21,680
have cell phones back then so i couldn't

2099
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:23,039
call freddy

2100
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:24,400
the reason he seems to have left late

2101
01:04:26,230 --> 01:04:25,599
was because he had been waiting on

2102
01:04:28,950 --> 01:04:26,240
rhonda

2103
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:28,960
and imagine i mean had she been with him

2104
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:31,200
she might have vanished too

2105
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:32,720
the way that the circumstance worked out

2106
01:04:34,870 --> 01:04:34,319
ryan i mean it's just so strange because

2107
01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:34,880
again it

2108
01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:36,240
was heartbreaking for her because he

2109
01:04:40,150 --> 01:04:38,319
vanishes and they never find

2110
01:04:42,549 --> 01:04:40,160
freddie again and rhonda and the family

2111
01:04:44,789 --> 01:04:42,559
just had to learn to cope with that

2112
01:04:46,150 --> 01:04:44,799
but she had initially been planning to

2113
01:04:47,349 --> 01:04:46,160
be on that flight with him and she said

2114
01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:47,359
we were going to fly down

2115
01:04:51,190 --> 01:04:49,119
and then come back and we're going to go

2116
01:04:51,670 --> 01:04:51,200
out to dinner which is funny because

2117
01:04:53,430 --> 01:04:51,680
again

2118
01:04:54,870 --> 01:04:53,440
one of the skeptical theories offered by

2119
01:04:56,309 --> 01:04:54,880
philip class had been that perhaps he

2120
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:56,319
had a girlfriend down there on king

2121
01:04:59,190 --> 01:04:57,760
island oh yeah well i guess rhonda was

2122
01:05:01,670 --> 01:04:59,200
going to go meet the girlfriend huh

2123
01:05:03,029 --> 01:05:01,680
yeah right well that also begs the whole

2124
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:03,039
question of you know

2125
01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:05,119
him planning some sort of suicide or

2126
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:07,200
disappearance you know

2127
01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:10,079
unless he was so depressed and angry

2128
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:12,160
that she didn't show up that he just

2129
01:05:17,029 --> 01:05:13,599
left without her

2130
01:05:18,549 --> 01:05:17,039
um it it sort of shows us that uh

2131
01:05:20,470 --> 01:05:18,559
you know he wasn't planning on making

2132
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:20,480
this trip alone so

2133
01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:22,559
yeah it does bring up a lot of questions

2134
01:05:26,630 --> 01:05:23,760
for sure

2135
01:05:27,750 --> 01:05:26,640
yeah i did ask her one other thing too i

2136
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:27,760
said you know rhonda

2137
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:29,440
did you ever fly with him before that

2138
01:05:32,950 --> 01:05:31,440
she said oh yeah i said how many times

2139
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:32,960
and she said probably 30.

2140
01:05:36,150 --> 01:05:35,440
wow i said yeah i said can i ask you a

2141
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:36,160
question i mean

2142
01:05:38,710 --> 01:05:37,440
when you were with him in the plane had

2143
01:05:39,910 --> 01:05:38,720
he ever done any kind of stunt flying

2144
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:39,920
anything like that she said look i know

2145
01:05:42,470 --> 01:05:40,640
what you're

2146
01:05:43,910 --> 01:05:42,480
wondering about did were we ever upside

2147
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:43,920
down because one of those those theories

2148
01:05:47,750 --> 01:05:45,280
had been that he'd been flying upside

2149
01:05:49,270 --> 01:05:47,760
down i didn't realize he was upside down

2150
01:05:50,230 --> 01:05:49,280
and crashed into the ocean and that the

2151
01:05:52,470 --> 01:05:50,240
light you saw

2152
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:52,480
and mistook for a ufo was the light of

2153
01:05:57,029 --> 01:05:53,839
the cockpit

2154
01:05:59,349 --> 01:05:57,039
there uh

2155
01:06:00,150 --> 01:05:59,359
reflecting off of the ocean below him

2156
01:06:03,270 --> 01:06:00,160
she said

2157
01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:03,280
he did loopty loops uh and uh zero g's

2158
01:06:06,309 --> 01:06:04,000
and all these other kind

2159
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:06,319
of things uh she described a variety of

2160
01:06:08,950 --> 01:06:07,839
different things that valentich likes to

2161
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:08,960
do when he would fly

2162
01:06:11,750 --> 01:06:10,319
and she said so yeah i mean i'd been in

2163
01:06:13,430 --> 01:06:11,760
the plane with him before when we had

2164
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:13,440
flown upside down trust me you know when

2165
01:06:18,390 --> 01:06:16,160
you're upside down

2166
01:06:20,390 --> 01:06:18,400
and and she said specifically that uh in

2167
01:06:22,390 --> 01:06:20,400
that kind of an aircraft that the radio

2168
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:22,400
the mic would would be dangling upside

2169
01:06:26,390 --> 01:06:24,240
down

2170
01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:26,400
so you know the impression i got from

2171
01:06:29,349 --> 01:06:27,920
her is that uh

2172
01:06:31,190 --> 01:06:29,359
first of all she was never interviewed

2173
01:06:32,950 --> 01:06:31,200
by any of these skeptics

2174
01:06:34,630 --> 01:06:32,960
and uh that she has just as many

2175
01:06:36,150 --> 01:06:34,640
questions as the rest of us but really

2176
01:06:37,750 --> 01:06:36,160
what can we say he describes seeing

2177
01:06:39,829 --> 01:06:37,760
something strange he went missing

2178
01:06:41,270 --> 01:06:39,839
he and his plane were never found that's

2179
01:06:42,710 --> 01:06:41,280
all we could really say about that case

2180
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:42,720
but to try and make all these

2181
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:44,240
again what i think are absurd

2182
01:06:47,910 --> 01:06:46,000
speculative theories about

2183
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:47,920
the girlfriend or the suicide attempt or

2184
01:06:50,549 --> 01:06:49,119
all these strange things that

2185
01:06:52,870 --> 01:06:50,559
he might have been secretly planning and

2186
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:52,880
they never once the skeptical

2187
01:06:55,829 --> 01:06:54,480
thinkers who have proposed these

2188
01:06:57,109 --> 01:06:55,839
theories they never once went and you

2189
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:57,119
know interviewed

2190
01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:59,440
rhonda themselves and what happens to me

2191
01:07:02,710 --> 01:07:00,640
of course is somebody

2192
01:07:03,670 --> 01:07:02,720
hears portions of the interview that i

2193
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:03,680
did with rhonda

2194
01:07:07,029 --> 01:07:05,039
and they said micah you've gotten too

2195
01:07:08,470 --> 01:07:07,039
close to this case you've allowed

2196
01:07:09,589 --> 01:07:08,480
yourself to get too close to the case

2197
01:07:12,470 --> 01:07:09,599
because you became friends with one of

2198
01:07:14,789 --> 01:07:12,480
the witnesses i said she is a friend now

2199
01:07:17,430 --> 01:07:14,799
but when i interviewed her i was looking

2200
01:07:19,109 --> 01:07:17,440
for answers and i don't think that

2201
01:07:20,950 --> 01:07:19,119
that actually doing what nobody else did

2202
01:07:22,390 --> 01:07:20,960
and asking her

2203
01:07:24,150 --> 01:07:22,400
about certain details of that case i

2204
01:07:25,829 --> 01:07:24,160
don't think that that undermines the

2205
01:07:28,630 --> 01:07:25,839
integrity of the research if anything

2206
01:07:30,069 --> 01:07:28,640
adds to it in ways that people you know

2207
01:07:31,270 --> 01:07:30,079
people like philip class they didn't

2208
01:07:34,950 --> 01:07:31,280
bother to

2209
01:07:38,710 --> 01:07:36,950
it really is they either made it up or

2210
01:07:41,029 --> 01:07:38,720
they didn't take the time and

2211
01:07:42,390 --> 01:07:41,039
you know our our good buddy stanton

2212
01:07:44,470 --> 01:07:42,400
friedman always says you know the

2213
01:07:45,430 --> 01:07:44,480
skeptics always use my mind is made up

2214
01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:45,440
so

2215
01:07:51,270 --> 01:07:49,119
uh well i mean ah such a compelling case

2216
01:07:54,309 --> 01:07:51,280
my good speaking of class

2217
01:07:55,349 --> 01:07:54,319
he referred to this book that i want to

2218
01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:55,359
talk about with you

2219
01:08:00,069 --> 01:07:58,079
um as one of the most significant and

2220
01:08:03,029 --> 01:08:00,079
useful books on ufos ever

2221
01:08:04,789 --> 01:08:03,039
published now for someone like philip j

2222
01:08:05,510 --> 01:08:04,799
class to say that that that means

2223
01:08:09,029 --> 01:08:05,520
something

2224
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:09,039
um and you brought this up to me you

2225
01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:10,480
sent me a picture of the cover and you

2226
01:08:14,470 --> 01:08:12,160
said you gotta get this book

2227
01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:14,480
uh and that was by astronomer alan

2228
01:08:17,430 --> 01:08:15,359
hendry

2229
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:17,440
i wanna sort of talk about what this

2230
01:08:21,749 --> 01:08:18,400
book is about

2231
01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:21,759
and uh how how it

2232
01:08:26,309 --> 01:08:23,520
can relate to where we're heading in

2233
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:26,319
terms of ufology these days you know

2234
01:08:32,870 --> 01:08:30,000
we've got a lot of a lot of

2235
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:32,880
i guess pathways that ufology is taking

2236
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:34,480
whether it's scientific whether it's

2237
01:08:40,470 --> 01:08:37,199
from the soft sciences whether it's uh

2238
01:08:41,669 --> 01:08:40,480
from a a cultural standpoint a contact d

2239
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:41,679
standpoint

2240
01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:43,440
the possibilities are endless but uh

2241
01:08:47,590 --> 01:08:45,359
this seems to be a strictly scientific

2242
01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:47,600
approach could you tell us a little bit

2243
01:08:52,550 --> 01:08:50,400
about this book by mr hendry and uh why

2244
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:52,560
it means so much to you

2245
01:08:57,749 --> 01:08:55,920
yeah this is a book that uh i i will

2246
01:09:00,149 --> 01:08:57,759
mention this book to so many people

2247
01:09:00,789 --> 01:09:00,159
and uh i mean some of the most revered

2248
01:09:03,510 --> 01:09:00,799
ufo

2249
01:09:04,950 --> 01:09:03,520
researchers of modern times had never

2250
01:09:06,149 --> 01:09:04,960
heard of this they might they might have

2251
01:09:08,709 --> 01:09:06,159
heard of the author

2252
01:09:10,149 --> 01:09:08,719
uh alan hendry of course he was i think

2253
01:09:11,669 --> 01:09:10,159
his minor was in astronomy he was

2254
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:11,679
actually a commercial artist

2255
01:09:15,910 --> 01:09:14,480
um and like me you this may sound

2256
01:09:17,430 --> 01:09:15,920
strange because in the context of a

2257
01:09:19,349 --> 01:09:17,440
discussion that's very specific and

2258
01:09:21,349 --> 01:09:19,359
really picking over the details about

2259
01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:21,359
you know a number of ufo cases which

2260
01:09:24,630 --> 01:09:22,640
henry did

2261
01:09:25,990 --> 01:09:24,640
and i would argue in a much more

2262
01:09:29,030 --> 01:09:26,000
scientific fashion than any

2263
01:09:30,470 --> 01:09:29,040
one probably before or after him but i

2264
01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:30,480
take it that he was also somebody who

2265
01:09:34,709 --> 01:09:32,400
had sort of a passing interest in ufos

2266
01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:34,719
like i do that may make no sense but

2267
01:09:36,789 --> 01:09:36,400
again the range of stuff i'm interested

2268
01:09:39,910 --> 01:09:36,799
in

2269
01:09:42,470 --> 01:09:39,920
hand okay right

2270
01:09:44,229 --> 01:09:42,480
but but anything that i'm interested in

2271
01:09:45,990 --> 01:09:44,239
i try to be thorough with it and so

2272
01:09:47,669 --> 01:09:46,000
often i'm invited on shows like this and

2273
01:09:49,110 --> 01:09:47,679
we will talk about ufos and then

2274
01:09:50,789 --> 01:09:49,120
next thing i see is you know some

2275
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:50,799
skeptics written a blog post

2276
01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:53,359
talking about ufologist micah hanks i

2277
01:09:57,270 --> 01:09:54,960
never claimed to be a ufologist

2278
01:09:59,430 --> 01:09:57,280
and alan henry for at least a few years

2279
01:10:01,350 --> 01:09:59,440
was a ufologist what he did

2280
01:10:03,189 --> 01:10:01,360
was um essentially while there was a

2281
01:10:05,510 --> 01:10:03,199
period that the center for ufo studies

2282
01:10:07,350 --> 01:10:05,520
uh under jaylen heineck during the 1970s

2283
01:10:09,990 --> 01:10:07,360
while it had some decent funding

2284
01:10:11,669 --> 01:10:10,000
for scientific studies of ufos they had

2285
01:10:12,790 --> 01:10:11,679
time for a full-time employee and so

2286
01:10:14,950 --> 01:10:12,800
alan hendry

2287
01:10:16,630 --> 01:10:14,960
became that employee i think that uh

2288
01:10:18,470 --> 01:10:16,640
heineken said that he

2289
01:10:19,990 --> 01:10:18,480
favored henry because he did have some

2290
01:10:20,630 --> 01:10:20,000
background in astronomy and again that

2291
01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:20,640
minor

2292
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:23,360
but yeah his his primary focus and and

2293
01:10:27,110 --> 01:10:24,480
actual commercial

2294
01:10:28,470 --> 01:10:27,120
uh profession was he was an artist his

2295
01:10:30,709 --> 01:10:28,480
wife on the other hand actually

2296
01:10:31,590 --> 01:10:30,719
uh was a astronomer and i think had a

2297
01:10:34,390 --> 01:10:31,600
phd

2298
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:34,400
yeah yep so yeah and she often would

2299
01:10:38,950 --> 01:10:35,920
assist him by the way with with

2300
01:10:40,950 --> 01:10:38,960
uh various investigations so

2301
01:10:42,310 --> 01:10:40,960
what henry would do essentially is he

2302
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:42,320
manned the phone line there

2303
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:44,560
at the center for ufo studies um and he

2304
01:10:48,149 --> 01:10:46,560
would i mean nine times out of ten he

2305
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:48,159
would be able to very easily

2306
01:10:52,229 --> 01:10:50,640
rule out ufos and he discusses how he

2307
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:52,239
when i say rule them out he makes the

2308
01:10:55,590 --> 01:10:53,760
distinction between the unidentified

2309
01:10:58,470 --> 01:10:55,600
flying object and then the ifo

2310
01:11:01,030 --> 01:10:58,480
the identified flyable flying object and

2311
01:11:03,990 --> 01:11:01,040
in his uh book that he wrote in 1979

2312
01:11:05,270 --> 01:11:04,000
called the ufo handbook which no longer

2313
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:05,280
imprint to my knowledge but you can

2314
01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:07,440
still get copies on amazon

2315
01:11:13,669 --> 01:11:10,960
used copies it's a very thorough book

2316
01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:13,679
uh it describes everything that he would

2317
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:15,440
go i mean the entire list he would run

2318
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:16,320
the gamut from

2319
01:11:19,510 --> 01:11:17,679
uh this was a popular one back in the

2320
01:11:21,110 --> 01:11:19,520
day advertising planes

2321
01:11:22,709 --> 01:11:21,120
and occasionally i'll get ufo reports

2322
01:11:24,870 --> 01:11:22,719
even these days where people say i mean

2323
01:11:25,990 --> 01:11:24,880
i saw this ufo it was the craziest thing

2324
01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:26,000
i've ever seen but it was so

2325
01:11:29,990 --> 01:11:28,400
strange micah it was advertising pizza

2326
01:11:31,189 --> 01:11:30,000
hut like

2327
01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:31,199
and i've actually had people say that

2328
01:11:35,189 --> 01:11:33,360
they saw ufos that seemed to be

2329
01:11:36,870 --> 01:11:35,199
like flashing letters that said pizza

2330
01:11:37,669 --> 01:11:36,880
hut and i said that was an advertising

2331
01:11:40,149 --> 01:11:37,679
plane

2332
01:11:41,189 --> 01:11:40,159
yeah and un incredibly people have never

2333
01:11:42,790 --> 01:11:41,199
seen this they don't know what an

2334
01:11:45,189 --> 01:11:42,800
advertising plane is well

2335
01:11:47,189 --> 01:11:45,199
that was i think you know a lot of those

2336
01:11:49,669 --> 01:11:47,199
cases maybe a majority these are what

2337
01:11:51,110 --> 01:11:49,679
a lot of people described as being ufos

2338
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:51,120
i suspect that the famous

2339
01:11:54,790 --> 01:11:52,880
ufo seen by john lennon there in new

2340
01:11:55,990 --> 01:11:54,800
york may have been one too and i know

2341
01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:56,000
that that

2342
01:11:59,189 --> 01:11:57,520
would probably anger a lot of people to

2343
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:59,199
try and seemingly diminish the

2344
01:12:01,910 --> 01:12:00,480
importance of that report but i think

2345
01:12:03,830 --> 01:12:01,920
any good ufo case

2346
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:03,840
deserves to be studied and if we can

2347
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:05,520
identify what it was

2348
01:12:10,149 --> 01:12:08,560
all the better so again that may be what

2349
01:12:10,950 --> 01:12:10,159
linen saw in his famous encounter but

2350
01:12:12,950 --> 01:12:10,960
alan henry

2351
01:12:14,630 --> 01:12:12,960
would call the air traffic control

2352
01:12:16,709 --> 01:12:14,640
operators in the region in question

2353
01:12:19,110 --> 01:12:16,719
he would sometimes travel uh to the

2354
01:12:20,470 --> 01:12:19,120
scene he would personally investigate

2355
01:12:21,669 --> 01:12:20,480
and sometimes use field equipment that

2356
01:12:21,990 --> 01:12:21,679
included you know geiger counters and

2357
01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:22,000
things

2358
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:25,280
like this and he seriously did

2359
01:12:29,110 --> 01:12:27,120
very good scientific research and

2360
01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:29,120
documented the the majority of these

2361
01:12:33,189 --> 01:12:31,040
ufos and was able to identify them

2362
01:12:35,430 --> 01:12:33,199
but as is typically the case in ufology

2363
01:12:38,149 --> 01:12:35,440
there was that distinct

2364
01:12:39,669 --> 01:12:38,159
minority of cases that really seem to

2365
01:12:41,590 --> 01:12:39,679
constitute something strange and there

2366
01:12:43,830 --> 01:12:41,600
are these great chapters

2367
01:12:45,110 --> 01:12:43,840
in that ufo handbook he wrote one of

2368
01:12:46,870 --> 01:12:45,120
them after the whole

2369
01:12:48,550 --> 01:12:46,880
range of classifications of different

2370
01:12:50,470 --> 01:12:48,560
things that might be misidentified as

2371
01:12:52,470 --> 01:12:50,480
ufos the ifos

2372
01:12:53,910 --> 01:12:52,480
he has the ifo message and he breaks it

2373
01:12:55,510 --> 01:12:53,920
all down and kind of

2374
01:12:57,669 --> 01:12:55,520
looks at it as a statistician and then

2375
01:12:59,750 --> 01:12:57,679
he starts making correlations and starts

2376
01:13:01,669 --> 01:12:59,760
examining what we take from people who

2377
01:13:03,510 --> 01:13:01,679
think they've seen incredible things

2378
01:13:04,790 --> 01:13:03,520
when in fact we now know what they

2379
01:13:05,350 --> 01:13:04,800
actually saw and we know it couldn't

2380
01:13:07,750 --> 01:13:05,360
have been

2381
01:13:09,990 --> 01:13:07,760
what they described then he looks at the

2382
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:10,000
ufo phenomena and does a whole separate

2383
01:13:14,070 --> 01:13:10,719
chapter

2384
01:13:15,430 --> 01:13:14,080
that's titled the ufo message

2385
01:13:17,510 --> 01:13:15,440
this is some of the best writing i've

2386
01:13:19,990 --> 01:13:17,520
ever come across on

2387
01:13:21,350 --> 01:13:20,000
interpretive analysis of the truly

2388
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:21,360
unexplainable

2389
01:13:25,669 --> 01:13:24,640
ufo cases in which he goes into all the

2390
01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:25,679
range of different kinds of

2391
01:13:28,390 --> 01:13:27,040
possibilities and things that may be

2392
01:13:30,790 --> 01:13:28,400
afforded us and it seems that like a

2393
01:13:33,110 --> 01:13:30,800
good scientist should be alan henry

2394
01:13:34,709 --> 01:13:33,120
was very skeptical in fact stanton

2395
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:34,719
friedman told me last february he said

2396
01:13:40,390 --> 01:13:37,280
he was just too skeptical for me

2397
01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:40,400
but i would say henry was also extremely

2398
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:41,760
open-minded i mean he never shut the

2399
01:13:45,990 --> 01:13:43,679
door on the idea of humanoids and

2400
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:46,000
possible non-human entities and things

2401
01:13:48,870 --> 01:13:46,719
when he

2402
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:48,880
he described and he rather than forming

2403
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:50,480
opinions he he you know

2404
01:13:53,910 --> 01:13:52,640
he he collected facts and he reported

2405
01:13:55,430 --> 01:13:53,920
and then he tried to interpret and he

2406
01:13:56,310 --> 01:13:55,440
tried to use science at all times to do

2407
01:13:59,430 --> 01:13:56,320
that

2408
01:14:00,630 --> 01:13:59,440
and you know again even philip class was

2409
01:14:01,990 --> 01:14:00,640
able to look at that book and say well

2410
01:14:03,590 --> 01:14:02,000
this is one of the most important books

2411
01:14:05,990 --> 01:14:03,600
on this subject that's ever been written

2412
01:14:07,590 --> 01:14:06,000
and yet hardly anybody these days seems

2413
01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:07,600
to even remember who alan hendry was

2414
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:08,960
because again he worked for the center

2415
01:14:12,830 --> 01:14:10,480
for ufo studies

2416
01:14:15,270 --> 01:14:12,840
he did some great research he got out of

2417
01:14:16,550 --> 01:14:15,280
eventually he's no longer active

2418
01:14:17,750 --> 01:14:16,560
i don't know if henry's still around

2419
01:14:18,950 --> 01:14:17,760
i've thought of trying to see if i could

2420
01:14:19,590 --> 01:14:18,960
look him up and if he would be willing

2421
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:19,600
to

2422
01:14:23,030 --> 01:14:21,440
even privately just chat because i know

2423
01:14:24,310 --> 01:14:23,040
he doesn't appear on podcasts and nobody

2424
01:14:26,149 --> 01:14:24,320
ever invites him and here's

2425
01:14:28,070 --> 01:14:26,159
arguably one of the best ufo researchers

2426
01:14:29,590 --> 01:14:28,080
of all time and you know just completely

2427
01:14:31,590 --> 01:14:29,600
overlooked he's got a wikipedia page at

2428
01:14:33,510 --> 01:14:31,600
least but

2429
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:33,520
yeah sadly that's all we usually get

2430
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:35,360
when people

2431
01:14:40,229 --> 01:14:37,760
uh you know sort of step out of this

2432
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:40,239
field is uh wikipedia but um

2433
01:14:44,310 --> 01:14:41,760
you know what one of the things that

2434
01:14:47,510 --> 01:14:44,320
caught me most micah was um

2435
01:14:49,189 --> 01:14:47,520
in an article you talked about uh andrey

2436
01:14:50,790 --> 01:14:49,199
saying something to the effects of even

2437
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,800
if sociology

2438
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:52,800
is the ultimate explanation of ufo

2439
01:14:57,830 --> 01:14:55,199
reports the implications may be

2440
01:14:58,630 --> 01:14:57,840
just as important what do you make of

2441
01:15:02,870 --> 01:14:58,640
that

2442
01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:02,880
approach to studying the ufo phenomenon

2443
01:15:08,790 --> 01:15:05,280
yeah absolutely does ryan absolutely and

2444
01:15:12,070 --> 01:15:10,550
there have been times throughout history

2445
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:12,080
i think this is a great way to phrase

2446
01:15:13,990 --> 01:15:12,719
this

2447
01:15:16,790 --> 01:15:14,000
there have been times throughout history

2448
01:15:18,790 --> 01:15:16,800
where we might

2449
01:15:20,310 --> 01:15:18,800
whether we see something over like a ufo

2450
01:15:22,229 --> 01:15:20,320
or whether we dream something or whether

2451
01:15:23,669 --> 01:15:22,239
we just imagine something

2452
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:23,679
there have been a lot of instances

2453
01:15:28,790 --> 01:15:25,520
throughout history where

2454
01:15:30,310 --> 01:15:28,800
we will have an idea and every idea has

2455
01:15:32,550 --> 01:15:30,320
an inspiration whatever that inspiration

2456
01:15:34,149 --> 01:15:32,560
may be and then that idea may go on in

2457
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:34,159
an abstract way

2458
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:35,679
and i think henry probably understood

2459
01:15:40,790 --> 01:15:37,520
this very well being an artist

2460
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:40,800
but that inspiration through abstraction

2461
01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:44,880
leads to creation and even innovation

2462
01:15:50,470 --> 01:15:48,080
and as far as ufos go i mean i will be

2463
01:15:51,990 --> 01:15:50,480
fascinated if belief in the possibility

2464
01:15:55,430 --> 01:15:52,000
of alien life visiting earth

2465
01:15:57,910 --> 01:15:55,440
and you know even exotic kinds of uh

2466
01:15:58,950 --> 01:15:57,920
of aircraft and other modes of

2467
01:16:00,070 --> 01:15:58,960
transportation

2468
01:16:02,310 --> 01:16:00,080
because i mean it might be debatable

2469
01:16:03,189 --> 01:16:02,320
especially based on their you know on

2470
01:16:05,430 --> 01:16:03,199
their operation

2471
01:16:06,709 --> 01:16:05,440
and observed operations that uh you know

2472
01:16:09,830 --> 01:16:06,719
if any of these

2473
01:16:11,590 --> 01:16:09,840
extremely anomalous ufo cases uh that

2474
01:16:13,669 --> 01:16:11,600
remain unexplained are indeed

2475
01:16:15,189 --> 01:16:13,679
representative of what people described

2476
01:16:15,990 --> 01:16:15,199
seeing at the time that this occurred i

2477
01:16:17,590 --> 01:16:16,000
mean

2478
01:16:19,350 --> 01:16:17,600
it might even be debatable whether these

2479
01:16:20,950 --> 01:16:19,360
are aircraft i would say rather than

2480
01:16:22,070 --> 01:16:20,960
being aircraft as we know them these may

2481
01:16:25,030 --> 01:16:22,080
be objects that move

2482
01:16:26,550 --> 01:16:25,040
through the air but not exactly aircraft

2483
01:16:27,669 --> 01:16:26,560
that's that you know

2484
01:16:29,910 --> 01:16:27,679
i think we're dealing with something

2485
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:29,920
that could be a lot more complex than

2486
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:32,080
the kinds of technologies that we know

2487
01:16:35,110 --> 01:16:33,520
and that we're used to dealing with and

2488
01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:35,120
that are familiar with and that we're

2489
01:16:39,030 --> 01:16:37,920
capable of you know understanding and

2490
01:16:41,430 --> 01:16:39,040
replicating

2491
01:16:42,070 --> 01:16:41,440
so that said let's say that there is no

2492
01:16:43,350 --> 01:16:42,080
ufo

2493
01:16:45,270 --> 01:16:43,360
and let's say that this is something

2494
01:16:46,709 --> 01:16:45,280
that through misidentification and all

2495
01:16:49,030 --> 01:16:46,719
kinds of other things that

2496
01:16:50,070 --> 01:16:49,040
a belief system of sorts has been built

2497
01:16:51,510 --> 01:16:50,080
around

2498
01:16:53,350 --> 01:16:51,520
uh and that maybe as we're becoming a

2499
01:16:55,110 --> 01:16:53,360
more technologically proficient society

2500
01:16:56,709 --> 01:16:55,120
we're moving slowly away from that let's

2501
01:16:57,669 --> 01:16:56,719
let's say that that's the case and that

2502
01:17:00,310 --> 01:16:57,679
again there's nothing but that

2503
01:17:01,910 --> 01:17:00,320
sociological component but our belief in

2504
01:17:03,669 --> 01:17:01,920
something that didn't exist has

2505
01:17:04,310 --> 01:17:03,679
nonetheless had a profound influence on

2506
01:17:07,110 --> 01:17:04,320
our culture

2507
01:17:09,189 --> 01:17:07,120
and may have even influenced varieties

2508
01:17:10,470 --> 01:17:09,199
of innovation and technologies

2509
01:17:12,070 --> 01:17:10,480
and then you get into the realm of some

2510
01:17:14,790 --> 01:17:12,080
of these what again some would call

2511
01:17:17,910 --> 01:17:14,800
government ufos if indeed these aircraft

2512
01:17:19,510 --> 01:17:17,920
have been designed and have been built

2513
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:19,520
and they resemble things that have

2514
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:21,120
appeared you know in the pulp magazines

2515
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:22,560
and the sci-fi mags and the

2516
01:17:25,750 --> 01:17:24,400
and the novels and stuff from the 1920s

2517
01:17:27,510 --> 01:17:25,760
30s and 40s

2518
01:17:29,030 --> 01:17:27,520
i mean it very well may be that again we

2519
01:17:32,229 --> 01:17:29,040
have created our own

2520
01:17:34,550 --> 01:17:32,239
ufo phenomena which has its very real

2521
01:17:35,590 --> 01:17:34,560
anomalous attributes as well as elements

2522
01:17:37,669 --> 01:17:35,600
of secrecy

2523
01:17:39,110 --> 01:17:37,679
associated with it and at some point

2524
01:17:41,350 --> 01:17:39,120
becomes very difficult to say whether

2525
01:17:43,750 --> 01:17:41,360
there is or is not a phenomena

2526
01:17:45,110 --> 01:17:43,760
because however you look at it seems to

2527
01:17:47,590 --> 01:17:45,120
be something that was

2528
01:17:48,709 --> 01:17:47,600
an observation that out of abstraction

2529
01:17:50,310 --> 01:17:48,719
has led to

2530
01:17:53,669 --> 01:17:50,320
whatever reality you want to attribute

2531
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:53,679
to it what we call the ufo reality today

2532
01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:55,440
absolutely and we know that people like

2533
01:17:57,990 --> 01:17:57,520
carl young and jacques valet have looked

2534
01:18:01,669 --> 01:17:58,000
at this as

2535
01:18:03,189 --> 01:18:01,679
well the whole post war anxiety aspect

2536
01:18:05,030 --> 01:18:03,199
of all this um

2537
01:18:07,270 --> 01:18:05,040
is it all something of the mind and what

2538
01:18:09,669 --> 01:18:07,280
could if it is you know what can we

2539
01:18:10,310 --> 01:18:09,679
extrapolate from that i know in an

2540
01:18:13,669 --> 01:18:10,320
article

2541
01:18:15,590 --> 01:18:13,679
touching on henry's book that you

2542
01:18:17,110 --> 01:18:15,600
you brought up something that i i've

2543
01:18:19,110 --> 01:18:17,120
never really thought about and that's

2544
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:19,120
that we're searching for answers about

2545
01:18:22,310 --> 01:18:19,440
what

2546
01:18:23,830 --> 01:18:22,320
ufos are and we're not paying attention

2547
01:18:25,030 --> 01:18:23,840
to the information we're actually

2548
01:18:28,870 --> 01:18:25,040
gleaning

2549
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,880
from the scientific approach and uh

2550
01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,400
you know the discoveries that are being

2551
01:18:35,990 --> 01:18:32,159
made about what ufos are not

2552
01:18:37,830 --> 01:18:36,000
is also interesting and essential

2553
01:18:39,430 --> 01:18:37,840
um would you agree with that if that

2554
01:18:41,189 --> 01:18:39,440
made any sense

2555
01:18:42,709 --> 01:18:41,199
it made perfect sense and yes i would

2556
01:18:44,790 --> 01:18:42,719
okay you know

2557
01:18:46,630 --> 01:18:44,800
the other thing too ryan is i don't

2558
01:18:49,189 --> 01:18:46,640
think and this is why i wanted to uh i

2559
01:18:50,790 --> 01:18:49,199
think some people may have misunderstood

2560
01:18:52,390 --> 01:18:50,800
i'll say that because i think that

2561
01:18:53,669 --> 01:18:52,400
that's more accurate rather than

2562
01:18:55,030 --> 01:18:53,679
friendly

2563
01:18:56,470 --> 01:18:55,040
the other term i might have used is they

2564
01:18:58,229 --> 01:18:56,480
might have mistaken but no i think some

2565
01:18:59,669 --> 01:18:58,239
people will probably see my

2566
01:19:02,149 --> 01:18:59,679
article and they'll say oh you know

2567
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:02,159
micah's just you know he's read henry's

2568
01:19:04,709 --> 01:19:03,600
book and now he's just regurgitating

2569
01:19:06,470 --> 01:19:04,719
what henry wrote

2570
01:19:07,590 --> 01:19:06,480
well actually if the essay that you're

2571
01:19:07,990 --> 01:19:07,600
talking about which you know of course

2572
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:08,000
appears

2573
01:19:12,790 --> 01:19:10,880
in a volume you've contributed a fine uh

2574
01:19:15,830 --> 01:19:12,800
essay as well and this is

2575
01:19:17,590 --> 01:19:15,840
uh robbie graham's upcoming anthology

2576
01:19:19,350 --> 01:19:17,600
which uh having not been released yet we

2577
01:19:20,790 --> 01:19:19,360
won't say too much but ufo's reframing

2578
01:19:22,550 --> 01:19:20,800
the debate i think it's okay to

2579
01:19:23,990 --> 01:19:22,560
to name that here and robbie's a

2580
01:19:25,750 --> 01:19:24,000
fabulous guy and

2581
01:19:27,110 --> 01:19:25,760
we got a lot of other great authors who

2582
01:19:30,149 --> 01:19:27,120
contributed to this

2583
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:30,159
volume so i wasn't just trying to you

2584
01:19:33,669 --> 01:19:31,199
know take up the

2585
01:19:34,790 --> 01:19:33,679
you know the you know the rain for uh

2586
01:19:36,310 --> 01:19:34,800
for uh

2587
01:19:38,470 --> 01:19:36,320
alan hendry and just carry on in his

2588
01:19:41,030 --> 01:19:38,480
footsteps because nobody else would

2589
01:19:41,990 --> 01:19:41,040
what i was trying to do with this essay

2590
01:19:43,430 --> 01:19:42,000
which actually i

2591
01:19:45,110 --> 01:19:43,440
propose an entirely different

2592
01:19:47,350 --> 01:19:45,120
classification system

2593
01:19:48,709 --> 01:19:47,360
for ufos in this essay and i also

2594
01:19:52,149 --> 01:19:48,719
provide my own modern

2595
01:19:54,149 --> 01:19:52,159
updated list of what you might call

2596
01:19:55,510 --> 01:19:54,159
potential ifos because i think that the

2597
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:55,520
important thing about being able to rule

2598
01:19:57,830 --> 01:19:56,159
out

2599
01:19:59,669 --> 01:19:57,840
those things which are not what we want

2600
01:20:02,070 --> 01:19:59,679
to try and determine which are

2601
01:20:03,590 --> 01:20:02,080
truly anomalous phenomena i mean if that

2602
01:20:05,270 --> 01:20:03,600
is something to be determined i mean i

2603
01:20:06,709 --> 01:20:05,280
don't think we should enter ufo studies

2604
01:20:08,310 --> 01:20:06,719
hoping for one thing or another i mean

2605
01:20:09,990 --> 01:20:08,320
it's okay to hope but if you're going to

2606
01:20:11,110 --> 01:20:10,000
really be scientific don't have a

2607
01:20:12,870 --> 01:20:11,120
preconception

2608
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:12,880
and allow that to lead your study you've

2609
01:20:17,590 --> 01:20:14,960
got to try and be completely cold

2610
01:20:18,070 --> 01:20:17,600
rational skeptical and unbiased even

2611
01:20:19,669 --> 01:20:18,080
again

2612
01:20:21,590 --> 01:20:19,679
many scientists the majority of them

2613
01:20:22,629 --> 01:20:21,600
these days have a hard time doing that

2614
01:20:24,310 --> 01:20:22,639
and that's why i don't think we've made

2615
01:20:25,750 --> 01:20:24,320
good progress on ufos

2616
01:20:27,830 --> 01:20:25,760
because people have made up their minds

2617
01:20:29,430 --> 01:20:27,840
either for or against the subject before

2618
01:20:31,350 --> 01:20:29,440
they enter the study

2619
01:20:32,709 --> 01:20:31,360
let's really just try and leave our

2620
01:20:33,590 --> 01:20:32,719
biases and opinions at the door and

2621
01:20:36,229 --> 01:20:33,600
let's just do

2622
01:20:37,669 --> 01:20:36,239
the the the science you know nobody

2623
01:20:38,790 --> 01:20:37,679
really these days well i can't say

2624
01:20:40,629 --> 01:20:38,800
nobody

2625
01:20:42,709 --> 01:20:40,639
but hardly anybody these days is really

2626
01:20:44,070 --> 01:20:42,719
doing that al and henry did so the first

2627
01:20:45,110 --> 01:20:44,080
point i'm trying to make is that look

2628
01:20:50,550 --> 01:20:45,120
this is the

2629
01:20:52,550 --> 01:20:50,560
information and a lot of better

2630
01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:52,560
technology at our disposal today than we

2631
01:20:55,510 --> 01:20:54,719
did in the 1970s when henry was doing

2632
01:20:58,550 --> 01:20:55,520
this

2633
01:21:00,229 --> 01:20:58,560
can we do no better so first here's the

2634
01:21:00,550 --> 01:21:00,239
model here's what one was able to do

2635
01:21:03,110 --> 01:21:00,560
with

2636
01:21:04,470 --> 01:21:03,120
again archaic implementation by today's

2637
01:21:05,750 --> 01:21:04,480
standards

2638
01:21:07,430 --> 01:21:05,760
shouldn't we be able to do better when

2639
01:21:08,870 --> 01:21:07,440
we've got an era in which these

2640
01:21:09,990 --> 01:21:08,880
multifunctional devices called

2641
01:21:11,669 --> 01:21:10,000
smartphones are carried around in

2642
01:21:12,229 --> 01:21:11,679
everybody's pocket we all have a decent

2643
01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:12,239
camera

2644
01:21:16,470 --> 01:21:14,880
we all have flight tracking radar in our

2645
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:16,480
pocket or you can if you download

2646
01:21:20,470 --> 01:21:19,199
actual flight radar 24 i have that app i

2647
01:21:22,070 --> 01:21:20,480
recommend other people get it

2648
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:22,080
it's easy to determine whether what

2649
01:21:25,189 --> 01:21:23,760
you've seen was a iridium flare

2650
01:21:26,709 --> 01:21:25,199
satellite or if it was the international

2651
01:21:28,870 --> 01:21:26,719
space station you can get the

2652
01:21:30,070 --> 01:21:28,880
sputnik app and you can monitor both of

2653
01:21:31,669 --> 01:21:30,080
those kinds of

2654
01:21:33,270 --> 01:21:31,679
man-made objects that are in earth orbit

2655
01:21:35,110 --> 01:21:33,280
i mean you can you can use

2656
01:21:38,950 --> 01:21:35,120
your smartphone as a veritable

2657
01:21:40,709 --> 01:21:38,960
transportable ufo tracking station

2658
01:21:42,390 --> 01:21:40,719
and yet we with all this technology at

2659
01:21:44,709 --> 01:21:42,400
our disposal have so few people doing

2660
01:21:45,830 --> 01:21:44,719
good science to study ufos so that's the

2661
01:21:47,590 --> 01:21:45,840
crux of the

2662
01:21:49,110 --> 01:21:47,600
article is how do we bring science back

2663
01:21:50,629 --> 01:21:49,120
to this subject if we want to reframe

2664
01:21:52,470 --> 01:21:50,639
the debate on ufos

2665
01:21:53,750 --> 01:21:52,480
uh maybe we should start from scratch

2666
01:21:54,870 --> 01:21:53,760
but you know what we've got a lot more

2667
01:21:57,990 --> 01:21:54,880
tools

2668
01:21:59,750 --> 01:21:58,000
to take with us this time absolutely i

2669
01:22:00,870 --> 01:21:59,760
think it's uh it's both a gift and a

2670
01:22:03,030 --> 01:22:00,880
curse

2671
01:22:04,070 --> 01:22:03,040
in this technological age for sure but

2672
01:22:07,030 --> 01:22:04,080
yeah i mean

2673
01:22:07,750 --> 01:22:07,040
this idea of the uap i think is uh where

2674
01:22:09,750 --> 01:22:07,760
we're heading

2675
01:22:11,110 --> 01:22:09,760
uh you know the term sort of hit

2676
01:22:13,110 --> 01:22:11,120
mainstream when

2677
01:22:14,709 --> 01:22:13,120
hillary clinton brought it up but you

2678
01:22:16,709 --> 01:22:14,719
know there have been many researchers

2679
01:22:19,030 --> 01:22:16,719
using this term for a while now

2680
01:22:20,629 --> 01:22:19,040
that we are dealing with phenomena in

2681
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:20,639
the sky or possibly

2682
01:22:25,430 --> 01:22:23,520
um on the ground and in the water that

2683
01:22:25,830 --> 01:22:25,440
we can explain that doesn't necessarily

2684
01:22:29,910 --> 01:22:25,840
mean

2685
01:22:31,669 --> 01:22:29,920
it's in solid object and also we both

2686
01:22:35,110 --> 01:22:31,679
know that the term ufo

2687
01:22:37,669 --> 01:22:35,120
comes with so much baggage uh was coined

2688
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:37,679
by the u.s government themselves the air

2689
01:22:42,229 --> 01:22:39,360
force in particular

2690
01:22:43,270 --> 01:22:42,239
um so this idea of moving towards a more

2691
01:22:45,910 --> 01:22:43,280
uap

2692
01:22:47,030 --> 01:22:45,920
centric study i think is uh it's

2693
01:22:49,110 --> 01:22:47,040
exciting

2694
01:22:51,590 --> 01:22:49,120
and i'm i was very happy to see you

2695
01:22:54,310 --> 01:22:51,600
using that term it's one i'm

2696
01:22:56,470 --> 01:22:54,320
nervous to use in my own writing and

2697
01:22:58,790 --> 01:22:56,480
research but i'm getting there brother

2698
01:22:59,510 --> 01:22:58,800
gathering the courage well it's okay and

2699
01:23:01,430 --> 01:22:59,520
you know i mean

2700
01:23:02,629 --> 01:23:01,440
maybe it's not even about courage i've

2701
01:23:03,910 --> 01:23:02,639
had people uh

2702
01:23:06,070 --> 01:23:03,920
come to me and say you know mike i

2703
01:23:08,550 --> 01:23:06,080
notice you use uap an awful lot these

2704
01:23:11,189 --> 01:23:08,560
days are you trying to sanitize

2705
01:23:12,709 --> 01:23:11,199
the study of ufos by using a slightly

2706
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:12,719
different term that has less stigma

2707
01:23:15,590 --> 01:23:13,760
attached to it

2708
01:23:17,189 --> 01:23:15,600
and i can't say that that's not a part

2709
01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:17,199
of it but what i will certainly say is

2710
01:23:18,950 --> 01:23:17,760
that

2711
01:23:20,709 --> 01:23:18,960
if you actually look at those

2712
01:23:21,430 --> 01:23:20,719
designations and you do consider those

2713
01:23:23,350 --> 01:23:21,440
stigmas

2714
01:23:25,350 --> 01:23:23,360
again i say ufo and people think

2715
01:23:26,709 --> 01:23:25,360
spaceship but that's not what a ufo is

2716
01:23:28,709 --> 01:23:26,719
and when edward ruppeld who was the

2717
01:23:31,350 --> 01:23:28,719
first you know head of project blue book

2718
01:23:32,550 --> 01:23:31,360
he uh proposed that uh term and coined

2719
01:23:34,790 --> 01:23:32,560
it also back in the

2720
01:23:35,669 --> 01:23:34,800
day a funny little side note by the way

2721
01:23:37,590 --> 01:23:35,679
he didn't say

2722
01:23:40,149 --> 01:23:37,600
it should be pronounced ufo he said it

2723
01:23:41,350 --> 01:23:40,159
is to be pronounced ufo

2724
01:23:43,189 --> 01:23:41,360
it doesn't seem to really stick although

2725
01:23:44,229 --> 01:23:43,199
some people especially in the uk and

2726
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:44,239
other parts of uh

2727
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:46,080
europe will you'll hear them say that

2728
01:23:48,390 --> 01:23:47,679
more often although there's also the

2729
01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:48,400
ovni

2730
01:23:51,430 --> 01:23:50,400
variety and a number of other things too

2731
01:23:53,669 --> 01:23:51,440
but um

2732
01:23:54,470 --> 01:23:53,679
with regard to the idea of the ufo i say

2733
01:23:57,350 --> 01:23:54,480
ufo

2734
01:23:59,110 --> 01:23:57,360
and i've had skeptics i mean i wish i

2735
01:24:01,030 --> 01:23:59,120
could say fellow skeptics i've got many

2736
01:24:02,950 --> 01:24:01,040
people who are fellow skeptics

2737
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:02,960
and i would dare to consider myself one

2738
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:05,199
of the most skeptical people

2739
01:24:09,990 --> 01:24:07,120
in the so-called ufo community who does

2740
01:24:12,629 --> 01:24:10,000
not identify himself as a debunker okay

2741
01:24:13,990 --> 01:24:12,639
but um and i'm if anything i'm right

2742
01:24:15,030 --> 01:24:14,000
there in line with alan henry so i'd

2743
01:24:17,110 --> 01:24:15,040
like to think that if

2744
01:24:18,310 --> 01:24:17,120
if people like philip class liked alan

2745
01:24:19,750 --> 01:24:18,320
hendry i don't care if they would have

2746
01:24:21,430 --> 01:24:19,760
liked me or not but i hope that they

2747
01:24:23,350 --> 01:24:21,440
would have recognized my mentality on

2748
01:24:25,910 --> 01:24:23,360
this as being similar to henry's but

2749
01:24:26,390 --> 01:24:25,920
that said again i say ufo and i've had

2750
01:24:29,669 --> 01:24:26,400
people

2751
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:29,679
try to to argue with me well you may

2752
01:24:33,110 --> 01:24:31,199
say that it means this or that but we

2753
01:24:34,790 --> 01:24:33,120
all know what somebody means typically

2754
01:24:36,229 --> 01:24:34,800
when they say ufo

2755
01:24:38,070 --> 01:24:36,239
and if i come back and say but that's

2756
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:38,080
not what it was intended to mean it is

2757
01:24:41,430 --> 01:24:40,080
me intended to mean unidentified flying

2758
01:24:41,910 --> 01:24:41,440
object that doesn't matter because they

2759
01:24:44,149 --> 01:24:41,920
said

2760
01:24:45,030 --> 01:24:44,159
we know you meant spaceship it's it's

2761
01:24:46,070 --> 01:24:45,040
incredible

2762
01:24:47,830 --> 01:24:46,080
the varieties of different

2763
01:24:50,229 --> 01:24:47,840
interpretations that people can use so

2764
01:24:50,950 --> 01:24:50,239
how is uap any better well unidentified

2765
01:24:54,070 --> 01:24:50,960
aerial

2766
01:24:55,270 --> 01:24:54,080
is a proper term but i think it kind of

2767
01:24:58,550 --> 01:24:55,280
goes back and forth

2768
01:25:01,030 --> 01:24:58,560
unexplained aerial phenomena does

2769
01:25:02,790 --> 01:25:01,040
at least allow for or account for a

2770
01:25:03,590 --> 01:25:02,800
variety of different things that may not

2771
01:25:05,430 --> 01:25:03,600
be

2772
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:05,440
an object per se i don't know that you

2773
01:25:07,990 --> 01:25:06,719
would call ball lightning or some

2774
01:25:10,310 --> 01:25:08,000
similar weather or

2775
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:10,320
you know meteorological or atmospheric

2776
01:25:14,550 --> 01:25:11,520
manifestation an

2777
01:25:15,750 --> 01:25:14,560
object per se i just think that uap is a

2778
01:25:17,990 --> 01:25:15,760
slightly better

2779
01:25:19,189 --> 01:25:18,000
catch-all term in reference to the broad

2780
01:25:19,990 --> 01:25:19,199
range of phenomena that we are

2781
01:25:23,189 --> 01:25:20,000
describing

2782
01:25:24,629 --> 01:25:23,199
when we discuss ufos although that term

2783
01:25:25,910 --> 01:25:24,639
is still very popular i just

2784
01:25:28,310 --> 01:25:25,920
i do think that it is a little more

2785
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:28,320
stigmatized and a little less

2786
01:25:32,070 --> 01:25:31,440
uh a little less bendable a little less

2787
01:25:34,070 --> 01:25:32,080
flexible

2788
01:25:35,430 --> 01:25:34,080
in terms of the variety of phenomena

2789
01:25:37,669 --> 01:25:35,440
we're studying

2790
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:37,679
absolutely you know and maybe one day

2791
01:25:41,750 --> 01:25:39,600
we'll move away from it uh only time

2792
01:25:44,470 --> 01:25:41,760
will tell but like you said we

2793
01:25:46,310 --> 01:25:44,480
within robbie's book and beyond we we

2794
01:25:47,830 --> 01:25:46,320
are trying to reframe that debate and

2795
01:25:50,950 --> 01:25:47,840
we've only

2796
01:25:52,790 --> 01:25:50,960
begun to erase the whiteboard and start

2797
01:25:54,390 --> 01:25:52,800
again but i think it's exciting

2798
01:25:56,550 --> 01:25:54,400
i think we've got a long way to go and i

2799
01:25:58,790 --> 01:25:56,560
think you're one of those people who are

2800
01:25:59,590 --> 01:25:58,800
really bringing new questions to the

2801
01:26:01,669 --> 01:25:59,600
table micah

2802
01:26:03,430 --> 01:26:01,679
um i gotta ask you brother what are you

2803
01:26:05,590 --> 01:26:03,440
working on what should we expect next

2804
01:26:08,149 --> 01:26:05,600
over at the ghrelian report

2805
01:26:09,189 --> 01:26:08,159
oh there's always so much going on i

2806
01:26:11,430 --> 01:26:09,199
mean i'm working on

2807
01:26:13,189 --> 01:26:11,440
a secret book project right now with a

2808
01:26:14,390 --> 01:26:13,199
co-author friend which i've said very

2809
01:26:16,390 --> 01:26:14,400
little about you're one of the very few

2810
01:26:18,229 --> 01:26:16,400
people who does know much about it and

2811
01:26:19,990 --> 01:26:18,239
and one of the reasons why it's secret

2812
01:26:22,950 --> 01:26:20,000
it's nothing clandestine so

2813
01:26:24,470 --> 01:26:22,960
to speak it's just um a project that is

2814
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:24,480
well outside the scope of

2815
01:26:29,430 --> 01:26:27,600
of you know ufos and uap now with regard

2816
01:26:31,510 --> 01:26:29,440
to the uap subject to something that i

2817
01:26:34,709 --> 01:26:31,520
do hope to be putting together a book

2818
01:26:37,270 --> 01:26:34,719
about sometime i hope within the next

2819
01:26:38,149 --> 01:26:37,280
year this will be kind of a follow-up to

2820
01:26:39,510 --> 01:26:38,159
a book i wrote

2821
01:26:41,669 --> 01:26:39,520
a couple of years ago called ghost

2822
01:26:44,790 --> 01:26:41,679
rockets ghost rockets of course

2823
01:26:47,189 --> 01:26:44,800
dealt with varieties of of uap

2824
01:26:48,070 --> 01:26:47,199
that very closely resemble missiles

2825
01:26:49,669 --> 01:26:48,080
rockets

2826
01:26:52,310 --> 01:26:49,679
again it starts with the history of what

2827
01:26:55,590 --> 01:26:52,320
was going on in scandinavia in 1946

2828
01:26:57,750 --> 01:26:55,600
shortly after the war but it's um

2829
01:26:58,950 --> 01:26:57,760
i think it goes much deeper than that

2830
01:27:00,470 --> 01:26:58,960
and uh you know of course i was able to

2831
01:27:01,910 --> 01:27:00,480
collect a lot of information leading

2832
01:27:04,149 --> 01:27:01,920
right up to the present where

2833
01:27:05,750 --> 01:27:04,159
similar torpedo-like or missile-like

2834
01:27:06,229 --> 01:27:05,760
objects i mean by all intent i borrow

2835
01:27:08,550 --> 01:27:06,239
that

2836
01:27:10,070 --> 01:27:08,560
classical ufological term ghost rockets

2837
01:27:11,669 --> 01:27:10,080
for these but i'm referring to

2838
01:27:13,830 --> 01:27:11,679
a continuation of phenomena whether or

2839
01:27:14,870 --> 01:27:13,840
not they are all indicative of the same

2840
01:27:17,669 --> 01:27:14,880
phenomena

2841
01:27:19,430 --> 01:27:17,679
and the most fascinating case of all

2842
01:27:21,510 --> 01:27:19,440
that i discussed in that book is

2843
01:27:22,629 --> 01:27:21,520
a case that i didn't realize this until

2844
01:27:24,390 --> 01:27:22,639
recently ryan but

2845
01:27:26,629 --> 01:27:24,400
there was an incident in november i

2846
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:26,639
believe of 1995 i know it preceded the

2847
01:27:32,310 --> 01:27:29,600
twa flight 800 crash

2848
01:27:33,830 --> 01:27:32,320
and there were a number of crews aboard

2849
01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:33,840
aircraft there was a lufthansa flight a

2850
01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:34,800
british air uh

2851
01:27:38,390 --> 01:27:36,880
airlines flight and they were all in

2852
01:27:39,270 --> 01:27:38,400
communication with boston air traffic

2853
01:27:41,030 --> 01:27:39,280
control and saw

2854
01:27:43,189 --> 01:27:41,040
a object they said that had a green

2855
01:27:44,390 --> 01:27:43,199
light on the front and seemed to be

2856
01:27:46,390 --> 01:27:44,400
or a white light on the front then it

2857
01:27:47,830 --> 01:27:46,400
had a green trail it was producing

2858
01:27:49,510 --> 01:27:47,840
everybody said it was just a meteor but

2859
01:27:51,270 --> 01:27:49,520
the pilots and the crew all said this

2860
01:27:53,189 --> 01:27:51,280
thing was flying it stayed in the air

2861
01:27:54,790 --> 01:27:53,199
maintained a horizontal trajectory it

2862
01:27:55,750 --> 01:27:54,800
looked more like an object not like a

2863
01:27:57,830 --> 01:27:55,760
meteor

2864
01:27:59,189 --> 01:27:57,840
uh the radar people said that they were

2865
01:28:00,390 --> 01:27:59,199
actually that that may not have been the

2866
01:28:02,070 --> 01:28:00,400
case that they were able to see it but

2867
01:28:05,669 --> 01:28:02,080
they were able to confirm its appearance

2868
01:28:07,270 --> 01:28:05,679
by multiple aircraft uh peter davenport

2869
01:28:09,110 --> 01:28:07,280
of the national ufo reporting center had

2870
01:28:11,750 --> 01:28:09,120
obtained a transcript of it but i just

2871
01:28:13,110 --> 01:28:11,760
found out that the audio is available on

2872
01:28:14,870 --> 01:28:13,120
youtube so people should be on the

2873
01:28:16,790 --> 01:28:14,880
lookout for that it's just fascinating

2874
01:28:18,390 --> 01:28:16,800
so i'm hoping to do a follow-up to that

2875
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:18,400
book that'll look at uh

2876
01:28:21,430 --> 01:28:20,400
mystery satellites objects that were in

2877
01:28:23,590 --> 01:28:21,440
earth orbit

2878
01:28:24,950 --> 01:28:23,600
since the 1950s before we had the tech

2879
01:28:26,550 --> 01:28:24,960
to be able to put them up there

2880
01:28:28,229 --> 01:28:26,560
and the continuation of claims of

2881
01:28:30,070 --> 01:28:28,239
strange things seen in orbit

2882
01:28:31,910 --> 01:28:30,080
uh in the years following and even going

2883
01:28:32,870 --> 01:28:31,920
back to the 19th century too so anyway i

2884
01:28:35,910 --> 01:28:32,880
don't want to get long-winded i've

2885
01:28:38,470 --> 01:28:35,920
already done plenty of that so

2886
01:28:39,270 --> 01:28:38,480
that's that's the the basic just though

2887
01:28:40,950 --> 01:28:39,280
and then there's

2888
01:28:42,470 --> 01:28:40,960
finally this other enduring mystery i'm

2889
01:28:44,310 --> 01:28:42,480
working on i can't say too much

2890
01:28:45,990 --> 01:28:44,320
about that at the present time but i

2891
01:28:49,430 --> 01:28:46,000
hope to have another book out about

2892
01:28:51,430 --> 01:28:49,440
a strange and somewhat ufological

2893
01:28:52,950 --> 01:28:51,440
something going on down there in chile

2894
01:28:56,629 --> 01:28:52,960
it's a fascinating

2895
01:28:58,470 --> 01:28:56,639
time yes a very active area for sure and

2896
01:29:00,229 --> 01:28:58,480
also one who's willing to come forward

2897
01:29:02,790 --> 01:29:00,239
with the information they have so

2898
01:29:04,229 --> 01:29:02,800
there's right there that's gotta help um

2899
01:29:05,750 --> 01:29:04,239
do you have any special events or

2900
01:29:07,990 --> 01:29:05,760
anything coming up

2901
01:29:08,790 --> 01:29:08,000
you know i've got um a couple of uh

2902
01:29:10,390 --> 01:29:08,800
cruises

2903
01:29:12,310 --> 01:29:10,400
that i'm going to be doing in september

2904
01:29:14,070 --> 01:29:12,320
and november and those are the ancient

2905
01:29:15,110 --> 01:29:14,080
mysteries crews where i'll be giving an

2906
01:29:16,790 --> 01:29:15,120
archaeological

2907
01:29:17,990 --> 01:29:16,800
lecture which will have something to do

2908
01:29:19,189 --> 01:29:18,000
and this is letting a little of the cat

2909
01:29:20,790 --> 01:29:19,199
out of the bag but

2910
01:29:23,270 --> 01:29:20,800
that lecture will have to do with this

2911
01:29:25,189 --> 01:29:23,280
primary book project i was talking about

2912
01:29:26,790 --> 01:29:25,199
and then in november the mysteries

2913
01:29:29,110 --> 01:29:26,800
cruise that i'm doing with my good pal

2914
01:29:31,990 --> 01:29:29,120
and fellow podcaster jim harold

2915
01:29:34,390 --> 01:29:32,000
that is going to be um really fun but

2916
01:29:38,070 --> 01:29:34,400
i'm going to be doing a discussion about

2917
01:29:40,229 --> 01:29:38,080
my other interest which is true crime

2918
01:29:41,750 --> 01:29:40,239
which involves some some of its strange

2919
01:29:42,709 --> 01:29:41,760
disappearances i think that really the

2920
01:29:44,070 --> 01:29:42,719
vintage

2921
01:29:45,510 --> 01:29:44,080
uh disappearance is one that kind of got

2922
01:29:48,310 --> 01:29:45,520
me into that but i've i've looked at a

2923
01:29:50,470 --> 01:29:48,320
lot of non-ufological disappearances too

2924
01:29:52,390 --> 01:29:50,480
uh and that is something of course

2925
01:29:53,189 --> 01:29:52,400
popularized a lot by david politis but

2926
01:29:54,709 --> 01:29:53,199
um

2927
01:29:56,550 --> 01:29:54,719
i think that on the true crime side of

2928
01:29:57,669 --> 01:29:56,560
thing there are also a lot of unsolved

2929
01:30:00,629 --> 01:29:57,679
crimes like the db

2930
01:30:01,350 --> 01:30:00,639
coup uh cooper skyjacking case all these

2931
01:30:03,030 --> 01:30:01,360
kind of things

2932
01:30:04,550 --> 01:30:03,040
they just fascinate me so that that will

2933
01:30:06,950 --> 01:30:04,560
be the subject of the lecture

2934
01:30:08,470 --> 01:30:06,960
on the mysteries cruise and then you and

2935
01:30:09,590 --> 01:30:08,480
i i believe in august are going to be in

2936
01:30:12,629 --> 01:30:09,600
canada together

2937
01:30:15,830 --> 01:30:12,639
at a event right yes we are yep i

2938
01:30:19,270 --> 01:30:15,840
uh i just signed away on my uh

2939
01:30:22,310 --> 01:30:19,280
my time off requests for work for that

2940
01:30:23,270 --> 01:30:22,320
um very excited yeah please tell people

2941
01:30:24,470 --> 01:30:23,280
about that

2942
01:30:26,310 --> 01:30:24,480
yeah well of course you know our good

2943
01:30:27,590 --> 01:30:26,320
friend paul kimball is one of the uh

2944
01:30:29,750 --> 01:30:27,600
one of the coordinators who's going to

2945
01:30:30,870 --> 01:30:29,760
be putting this on initially they'd

2946
01:30:32,790 --> 01:30:30,880
wanted me to

2947
01:30:34,470 --> 01:30:32,800
in the context of whatever i discussed

2948
01:30:35,910 --> 01:30:34,480
also kind of talk about roswell a bit

2949
01:30:37,030 --> 01:30:35,920
because roswell you know the 70th

2950
01:30:38,390 --> 01:30:37,040
anniversary

2951
01:30:40,149 --> 01:30:38,400
uh is going on and they're going to be

2952
01:30:41,990 --> 01:30:40,159
doing a festival in roswell that i may

2953
01:30:43,110 --> 01:30:42,000
or may not be attending

2954
01:30:44,790 --> 01:30:43,120
we'll have to see there are some other

2955
01:30:45,430 --> 01:30:44,800
things on the books possibly but i have

2956
01:30:47,910 --> 01:30:45,440
to wait to

2957
01:30:48,629 --> 01:30:47,920
for comp confirmation on that but uh i

2958
01:30:50,870 --> 01:30:48,639
think paul

2959
01:30:51,669 --> 01:30:50,880
has uh asked that i talk about something

2960
01:30:53,510 --> 01:30:51,679
a little different

2961
01:30:54,950 --> 01:30:53,520
as it turns out and uh which i think

2962
01:30:56,790 --> 01:30:54,960
will be great and it's gonna be a little

2963
01:30:57,110 --> 01:30:56,800
different kind of an approach to things

2964
01:30:58,709 --> 01:30:57,120
uh

2965
01:31:00,149 --> 01:30:58,719
in the context of all the stuff that we

2966
01:31:01,830 --> 01:31:00,159
hope we'll all be

2967
01:31:03,350 --> 01:31:01,840
uh studying there together so i'm just

2968
01:31:04,629 --> 01:31:03,360
glad to know that you'll be there and uh

2969
01:31:06,790 --> 01:31:04,639
you know we'll be headed up to nova

2970
01:31:08,709 --> 01:31:06,800
scotia and doing some some uh fun

2971
01:31:10,629 --> 01:31:08,719
ufological talking later this summer

2972
01:31:12,070 --> 01:31:10,639
yes very much so i haven't been that far

2973
01:31:12,950 --> 01:31:12,080
up north in a while so it'll be

2974
01:31:15,510 --> 01:31:12,960
refreshing

2975
01:31:16,629 --> 01:31:15,520
and uh in the summer nonetheless which

2976
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:16,639
will be good

2977
01:31:20,390 --> 01:31:19,440
yeah oh yeah absolutely oh awesome micah

2978
01:31:21,750 --> 01:31:20,400
so um

2979
01:31:23,750 --> 01:31:21,760
brother where can we find out more about

2980
01:31:25,510 --> 01:31:23,760
what you're doing yeah i mean you know

2981
01:31:27,030 --> 01:31:25,520
my podcasts of course are at graylien

2982
01:31:29,590 --> 01:31:27,040
report that's gr

2983
01:31:30,070 --> 01:31:29,600
and the word alien which is a dual

2984
01:31:32,310 --> 01:31:30,080
reference

2985
01:31:33,669 --> 01:31:32,320
to aliens but also you know the search

2986
01:31:34,229 --> 01:31:33,679
for the holy grail which has always been

2987
01:31:35,910 --> 01:31:34,239
interesting

2988
01:31:38,070 --> 01:31:35,920
you know that's been a fascination of

2989
01:31:39,470 --> 01:31:38,080
mine since childhood so graylien

2990
01:31:41,750 --> 01:31:39,480
word i created anyway so

2991
01:31:43,750 --> 01:31:41,760
grayleyandreport.com is the podcast but

2992
01:31:44,870 --> 01:31:43,760
if you go to micah hanks.com you can get

2993
01:31:46,709 --> 01:31:44,880
information about all

2994
01:31:48,149 --> 01:31:46,719
the other stuff i'm doing and i do a

2995
01:31:50,229 --> 01:31:48,159
news and current events poll

2996
01:31:51,990 --> 01:31:50,239
podcast too called uh middle theory

2997
01:31:53,270 --> 01:31:52,000
which is at middletheory.com so you can

2998
01:31:54,870 --> 01:31:53,280
find all the aforementioned at those

2999
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:54,880
three locations and uh

3000
01:31:57,990 --> 01:31:56,880
yeah definitely check out check out what

3001
01:32:01,189 --> 01:31:58,000
i'm up to awesome

3002
01:32:03,910 --> 01:32:01,199
and i am a member of the grayley x gang

3003
01:32:05,910 --> 01:32:03,920
so um for those who don't know micah

3004
01:32:08,070 --> 01:32:05,920
also has a subscriber-based

3005
01:32:09,669 --> 01:32:08,080
show that is definitely worth the price

3006
01:32:11,590 --> 01:32:09,679
of admission let me tell you

3007
01:32:14,709 --> 01:32:11,600
i love getting those extra treats every

3008
01:32:16,629 --> 01:32:14,719
week in my itunes box so um

3009
01:32:17,990 --> 01:32:16,639
check that out at his website as well

3010
01:32:19,910 --> 01:32:18,000
and uh

3011
01:32:21,510 --> 01:32:19,920
again micah i can't thank you enough

3012
01:32:22,229 --> 01:32:21,520
brother for coming on for one of my

3013
01:32:25,030 --> 01:32:22,239
first

3014
01:32:26,550 --> 01:32:25,040
interviews of this new endeavor and uh

3015
01:32:27,430 --> 01:32:26,560
again couldn't think of a better person

3016
01:32:32,149 --> 01:32:27,440
so

3017
01:32:34,390 --> 01:32:32,159
pleasure and you're a fine interviewer

3018
01:32:37,669 --> 01:32:34,400
so much continued success as you uh

3019
01:32:39,030 --> 01:32:37,679
go forth and podcast okay thanks so much

3020
01:32:41,910 --> 01:32:39,040
man take care

3021
01:32:43,590 --> 01:32:41,920
you too i hope you enjoyed today's

3022
01:32:45,750 --> 01:32:43,600
interview with micah hanks

3023
01:32:47,510 --> 01:32:45,760
and please do check out his weekly radio

3024
01:32:50,550 --> 01:32:47,520
show the graylien report

3025
01:32:52,950 --> 01:32:50,560
on the kgra network or

3026
01:32:53,590 --> 01:32:52,960
subscribe to it on itunes while you're

3027
01:32:55,669 --> 01:32:53,600
there

3028
01:32:57,669 --> 01:32:55,679
make sure to subscribe to somewhere in

3029
01:33:00,310 --> 01:32:57,679
the skies and please

3030
01:33:02,070 --> 01:33:00,320
rate and review the show it helps more

3031
01:33:04,390 --> 01:33:02,080
than you know if you have any questions

3032
01:33:06,149 --> 01:33:04,400
comments or guest suggestions you can

3033
01:33:08,470 --> 01:33:06,159
reach me at sprague

3034
01:33:09,990 --> 01:33:08,480
somewhere in the skies skies.com well

3035
01:33:12,070 --> 01:33:10,000
that's it for episode two

3036
01:33:13,990 --> 01:33:12,080
i'll see you here next monday and

3037
01:33:16,550 --> 01:33:14,000
remember keep your feet on the ground

3038
01:33:22,590 --> 01:33:16,560
but never stop searching somewhere in

3039
01:33:32,190 --> 01:33:22,600
the skies